Daily Kos

Health Care Proposals: What's Going On?

Sun May 04, 2008 at 07:52:29 AM PDT

smintheus wrote yesterday about the 71 year old Republican candidate's attempted smear of Democratic proposals, evoking big government socialized medicine (in McCain's day, that meant something, but these days, it's just a marker of whether you are a Republican or a Democrat. And, of course, there's fewer and fewer Republicans every day.)

Earlier in the campaign Mr. McCain made the accusation more explicitly. "There will be efforts to have a single-payer big government solution by the Democrats," he said at a debate in Orlando, Fla., in October. "They’ve already espoused those causes. If you believe them, please take a trip to Canada or England before you decide to support such a thing."

And in August when he was interviewed by Charlie Rose on PBS, Mr. McCain said: "Look at what the Democrats’ proposal is. It’s a government-run, single-payer system like they have in Canada and like they have in England."

Mr. Rose interrupted: "But I beg to differ. They will say that it is not that at all."

Certainly it is not, even if many wish it would be. But what we have here is something that's a good deal simpler than it seems, but no one wants to talk about. The simple fact is that neither Republican nor Democratic proposals put a great deal of extra money into health reform. Because of that, the only way to enact any of the candidates' stated programs (in the unlikely event they actually go forward as is – something Congress will have a major say in) is to redistribute dollars, or to put it more bluntly, figure out who the winners and losers are.

In the McCain proposal, the winners are the insurance companies, and to a lesser extent, business. He'd like to allow more 'freedom' for the companies to sell their product with higher deductibles and catastrophic insurance but less in the middle, and somehow he'd like to borrow Bush's magic wand (the one that lowers oil prices) to make a high deductible plan more affordable to average Americans (and hope they don't really need the coverage or medicine). The funny thing is that McCain doesn't really understand his own proposal.

As a result, McCain's aides have been scrambling to come up with ways to satisfy those who want more coverage without violating what they call McCain's conservative principles on the issue.

There's more here about McCain and his plan, and more references here about all the plans.

In the Democratic proposal, increased coverage is the goal, though the cost of such a system to both consumers and taxpayers in unclear. Winners are those who can't afford insurance now, but what the end result will look like is murky. That's partly because there's a great disparity across the country between states like TX and CA with high uninsured, and states like MA with much lower percentages of uninsured, so winners and losers are not evenly distributed geographically.

So, trying to figure out winners and losers, here's some very helpful advice from the CEO of the Kaiser Foundation, Drew Altman:

In listening to candidates at a series of presidential candidate forums in our Barbara Jordan Conference Center and sifting through the hundreds of hours of speeches, debates, and documents by Presidential candidates about health policy we have compiled on the web, here are three critical differences between the parties that set the stage for the next health reform debate.

First, there is a basic difference on whether guaranteeing universal or nearly universal health insurance coverage should be the primary goal of health reform. Democrats consistently say it should be, though the leading candidates’ plans differ somewhat on how to get there and whose plan represents a better approach. Republicans do not have universal coverage as their overarching goal. They believe it requires too big a role for government to guarantee universal coverage and will cost too much to pay for it. Instead, they want to make coverage more available in the private marketplace and give people a tax break to help those who want it afford it. The top priority they emphasize is to create a more efficient, and in their view, more affordable private health insurance marketplace based on individual choice and competition. This, they believe will expand coverage, but guaranteeing coverage for all is not their main goal. This difference reflects the greater priority their base gives to controlling costs over expanding coverage, as documented repeatedly in the tracking polls that Molly Brodie, who heads our polling group, and her team conduct at the Foundation.

Altman rightly suggests focusing on the fundamental differences between the D and R plans, including the McCain's suggested move away from employer-based care, because that's what the discussion should be in the fall:

...there is also a fundamental difference in what the two sides see as the basic purpose of health insurance. Democrats favor comprehensive insurance with front-end protection, which in their view encourages more preventive care and protects people better from financial costs of an illness. Republicans generally promote plans with high deductibles on the front end and catastrophic protection on the back end, coupled with tax-preferred savings accounts people would use to pay for routine care. They believe this will encourage people to become more prudent consumers of health care and use less health care overall.  Whether high deductible health plans with savings accounts are a forward-looking reform that will introduce market incentives and lower costs as advocates claim, or represent skimpier insurance surrounded by market rhetoric as critics believe, is an important question to debate and study as these new forms of insurance enter the marketplace. My purpose here is to characterize differences, not to referee these debates. There is no question, however, that the difference between the parties on the very nature and purpose of health insurance is a fundamental one that needs to be elucidated for voters.

Altman has further observations that can be found here. And, for a more blunt view of what's going on in the health debate, check out this half hour video from Henry J Aaron (Brookings) and Stuart Butler (Heritage) debating the uninsurance/underinsurance issue. Wonky, but very good. Aaron notes the winner-loser issue up front, and Butler talk about the limits <gasp> of the market (not bad from a conservative). He says "markets themselves cannot guarantee affordable and available access everywhere", and he's right. But he also brings up issues of rationing as an inevitable consequence. Both agree that state innovation (with Federal support) is key, which is exactly the opposite of Bush and McCain's attitude towards SCHIP.

McCain: Bush right to veto kids health insurance expansion

This is an issue that will be even more prominent come November, so take the time to study up a bit on how to define the issue. It seems that McCain is already trying to do that, and part of the reason is that he knows he loses on the universal coverage issue (see McCain rejects calls for universal health coverage), and because of his pre-existing cancer diagnosis, looks like a hypocrite to boot. And don't get me started on what recession means to all of the above. Check this out:

Almost Four In 10 Report Serious Financial Burden Caused By Medical Bills; 7 Percent Say Someone In Their Household Got Married So They or Their Spouse Could Get Health Benefits

Health reform is a problem that's not going away.

DemFromCT's Health Care Discussion Links can be found here.

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Tags: John McCain, health care, reform (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 143 comments

  •  which party is preferred? (20+ / 0-)

    from ABC/WaPo

    "Which political party -- the Democrats or the Republicans -- do you trust to do a better job handling health care?"    (Parties rotated)  9/27-30/07
    Democrats        56
    Republicans      26
    Both (vol.)       2
    Neither (vol.)   12
    Unsure            5

    "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

    by DemFromCT on Sun May 04, 2008 at 07:47:30 AM PDT

    •  It's great to see this diary (4+ / 0-)

      Thank you for bringing some much-needed attention to health care policy and how it plays politically.

      As your poll shows, this is one of the most important winning issues for Democrats in the fall, particularly since the major plans do not call for single-payer and the main Republican attack is blunted (so long as Democrats are able to communicate the difference).

      One minor criticism. I would not say that a major difference between Democratic and Republican approaches to health care is that the Republicans want to disintermediate employers from health insurance while Democrats do not. Some Republicans do, some don't, and some Democrats do, some don't. For example, Wyden's bill in the Senate with many cosponsors on both sides of the aisle would also remove employers from the equation in health insurance.

      "We're borrowing money from China to buy oil from the Persian Gulf to burn it in ways that destroy the planet." Al Gore

      by jd in nyc on Sun May 04, 2008 at 08:29:11 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I agree except that Wyden's plan (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        upperleftedge, Justanothernyer

        which I comment on below, is not McCain's plan or Clinton;'s plan or Obama's plan - yet.

        "Democratic and Republican approaches" is shorthand for  "Democratic and Republican Presidential candidate approaches" (that is what they are running on, ignoring Wyden's for now) and I happen to think none of the candidates are especially realistic about what will fly.

        See note below about Wyden's plan, which everyone should familiarize themselves with.

        "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

        by DemFromCT on Sun May 04, 2008 at 08:40:36 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  The transition is key (4+ / 0-)

        In addition to looking at the present circs and where the Dems and Republicans want to end up (for the GOP, and a fortiori for McCain, the goal is muddled and vague but at least we can pin them down on some things they're aiming at), it's necessary to look at the different proposals to transition from the current to the future.

        With McCain, the transition is disastrously abrupt and unmanageable (even if one believes in the panecia of the marketplace). He wants to twist arms to get businesses to drop their health plans and throw tens of millions of people suddenly into the insurance marketplace to fend for themselves. It would be an unmitigated disaster, a meltdown, and highly traumatic for many families. Almost certainly individuals would end up paying much more for their health insurance, and might not get the lost health benefits back in the form of pay increases - thus a major net loss in income.

        The Obama and Clinton plans appear to envisage weaning people who are willing away from whatever their current circs are and into a more attractive and affordable coverage. Both plans also are presented as dynamic, i.e. evolving slowly from the current situation to whatever goal the public embraces.

        I'm not wild about either the Obama or Clinton plans, but at least they're not traumatic. They're capable (at least theoretically) of making things better (or at least not much worse) in the short and medium term, whereas McCain's plan can only be horrific for the majority of Americans who receive employer-sponsored health coverage.

        •  I see another way to put McSame on the defensive (0+ / 0-)

          The collective GOP blood pressure has sky-rocketed over the Dems' ad with McSame saying he's fine with staying in Iraq for a hundred years. Let's get them really foaming at the mouth by saying McSame would have your employer dump its health care plan and stick you, the individual, with the cost and hassle of getting their own. Harry and Louise, where are you?

        •  I would add that (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Leap Year
          it's not just that employers "might" not increase salaries; given the economic climate that is likely to prevail for a while, a huge majority WOULD not.

          I also have trouble with McBush's insistence that all sorts of wonderful information technologies and a radical new system of billing for care that I have no idea how he would enforce without massive new goverment regulations and controls is somehow going to be passed on to consumers in the form of affordable premiums. Based on what we've seen in other industries (and the fact that increased productivity has resulted in stagnant wages and a decreasing percentage of expensives accounted for by labor), it seems to me that the insurance companies will add these eonomies to their profit margin. How would McBush prevent that without major new government regulations? I think his unregulated, wild-west health-care climate would be horrible for most people.

          We're retiring Steve LaTourette (R-Family Values for You But Not for Me) and sending Judge Bill O'Neill to Congress from Ohio-14: http://www.oneill08.com/

          by anastasia p on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:05:46 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Use your legs, auto, plane, train, bike, etc. (0+ / 0-)

      Because our Congress is owned by Corporate America, do not expect Universal Health care in your lifetime(Your present age is irrelevant). Use your legs or whatever, to live in another country(That's every other industrialized one) which already has it. Darwinian Capitalism will continue to destroy America. Get out if you can, while you can. Obama's election would be a ray of hope, but Congress will NOT approve Universal Health care, regardless of who is POTUS. Wish it could be otherwise.

    •  Unsurprising (0+ / 0-)

      And it's clear McBush knows that the truth will destroy him on this issue. I don't know where else his "Bold Solutions for Health Care" TV ad is running, but it's on here in Cleveland, Ohio and it tries to woo voters by focusing on the unbold tinkering and completely ignoring the elephant in the living room (e.g. demolishing employer-based health insurance and throwing everyone at the mercies of the "free" market). It mentions only three things, two uncontroversial (although it occured to me to wonder what his voting record on them is) and one a tired old bogey of the right: no drug benefits for millionaires, allowing drug importation and controlling medical malpratice suits (tort reform). And of course, none of these is particularly bold and none of them really gets at the real problem. The do try to make him look bold by using a photo shot from a low angle, but it's going to take more than that to put this loser across.

      We're retiring Steve LaTourette (R-Family Values for You But Not for Me) and sending Judge Bill O'Neill to Congress from Ohio-14: http://www.oneill08.com/

      by anastasia p on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:52:32 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I remember Hillary's plan in 1993 (11+ / 0-)

    and the most striking thing about her whole process was that it seemed to exclude the very grassroot type organizations that one would need to institute change and instead gave seats at the table to vested interests determined that any change would be cosmetic.

    It was this and the secretive nature of the discussion that fueled a lot of opposition to her plan. I still don't see that she has changed her plans to deal with the percentage raked off the top by carriers and other players.

    •  As I never tire of telling folks (11+ / 0-)

      No electable candidate is ever going to just give us single payer.  The best we can hope for is a candidate who will get out of the way and allow it to happen - if we build the grassroots movement to make it happen.

      •  Almost, Chico but open hearings — on C-Spa (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Chico David RN

        (at the start) with everybody testifying, patients - both those with and without insurance coverage, MDs, nurses, Public Health people, sociologists, hospitals, patient's families, Dr.s office staff who have to deal with the forms and attempts at collecting and on and on.

        Imagine:
        "And what is the pay of the CEO? the COO? the board of directors? and how much do you spend on advertising? on PR? on the deniers?" To Pharmas; the HMOs and on and on. And always the patients and the relatives of those who lost relatives to denials. And those who can not get insurance. The hospitals going under because of the denials and the uninsured. Some state governors who are intelligent and knowledgeable about their state's financial problems with health care.

        It could be as riveting as the Watergate hearings. The networks might pick it up.

        And how about John Edwards as chief interlocutor?

        In 1858 Abraham Lincoln wrote

        "With public sentiment,
        nothing can fail; without it, nothing can succeed. Consequently, he who molds public sentiment goes deeper than he who enacts statutes or pronounces decisions."

        We are in a time where it is risky NOT to change. Barack Obama 7-30-08

        by samddobermann on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:29:53 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I say it loud, and I say it proud! (12+ / 0-)

    I'm for single payer. If the rightards want to call it socialized medicine, I say yeah, and it pays for your rectal exams, too, because we're going to shove it right up your ass!

    "Lash those traitors and conservatives with the pen of gall and wormwood. Let them feel -- no temporising!" - Andrew Jackson to Francis Preston Blair, 1835

    by Ivan on Sun May 04, 2008 at 07:58:45 AM PDT

  •  McCain plan in 7 words (10+ / 0-)

    You're on your own.
    Don't get sick.

    This is the mantra we need to keep repeating.  We need to brand him with this and keep on hanging it around his neck.  No health security for anyone.  And the fact that he himself would not be able to get coverage under his own plan.

  •  What gets me most is the fact that John Sidney (10+ / 0-)

    McCain, son of an Admiral in the US Navy, Annapolis grad, US Navy flyboy, then US Congressman, and US Senator, has benefited from what for anyone else would be called "socialized medicine" his entire life!   The guy is such a phony!  But, what is good for the goose, in not good enough for the American people, since they are too stupid to realize that we are hosing them.  God, I hate Republicans!

  •  I saw Sicko (9+ / 0-)

    "...please take a trip to Canada or England before you decide to support such a thing."

    Yeah, countries where nobody has to fear medical expenses... hospitals that don't charge anything, with "cashiers" whose sole function is to reimburse patients for travel & parking... hellish!

    I'm not a Democrat, I'm a liberal. Democrats go to meetings.

    by willie horton on Sun May 04, 2008 at 08:07:34 AM PDT

    •  I've known several people (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      GayHillbilly, elfling, Pris from LA

      who've travelled to Canada and Europe, had an illness or an accident, and come home raving about the care they received...and also the low cost. We need to get people like that to do YouTube ads talking about their experiences.

      The bigger the pool, the more the risk is spread around -- so what better pool than the entire population of the United States? You take the money that businesses are currently shelling out to the "insurance" companies (they'll see a net savings in not having to have someone to administer all those plans or to call the "insurers" when they fuck up an employee's claim), add in money from every taxpayer (probably the equivalent of what they're paying in health care costs), and expand Medicare to cover everyone.

      In the long run, single-payer would save money -- if people get regular health checkups, serious health problems can be discovered when they're easily treatable. My dad died of a heart attack at the age of 47; America lost out on close to 20 years of taxes from him, plus had to pay out Social Security and VA survivor's benefits to his minor children (me and my brother).

    •  Exactly--some simple facts (0+ / 0-)

      Stat-per capita$  %GDP  infant mort. life exp.
      US     $6401  15.3% 6.8/1000  77.8 yr
      Canada $3336  9.8%  5.3/1000  80.2 yr
      Britain $2724 8.3%  5.0/1000  78.9 yr

      That infant mortality number of 6.8 deaths per 1000 births is particularly troubling. We are equal with Slovakia and Poland. The only OECD countries that are worse off are Turkey and Mexico. That's out of 30 countries. Are you proud of this statistic Senator McCain?

      Yes, Senator McCain, we should make a trip to Canada and England. We could learn how they do much better for far less. Maybe we should check out a few other countries, too. Like Japan and Spain and Norway and Sweden and, god forbid, even France.

      They all do much better for far less.

      But then, you've used government-provided health care for most of your life, so you know how much better it is already.

      There are a lot of us regular American's who would like to find out, too.

      Data sources:
      http://www.oecd.org/...
      http://www.oecd.org/...

      "In the end we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends." MLK, changed to this during the 2008 FISA fight

      by bewert on Sun May 04, 2008 at 10:56:52 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  There is NO excuse for this crisis to.... (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    irate, Hobbitfoot, willie horton

    ....keep continuing. Doing nothing is NOT an option. Single payer is the ONLY answer, and we need people who will show the political courage to get it done.

    We need to stop worrying about the possibility that the Republcians might be mean to us and call us names. We need to not worry about hurting the feelings of insurance lobbyists and executives. For most Americans our healthcare system is very precarious at best, if not an outright failure.

    "...if my thought-dreams could be seen, they'd probably put my head in a guillotine...." {-8.13;-5.59}

    by lams712 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 08:09:11 AM PDT

    •  it's actually not the only answer (5+ / 0-)

      see link and scroll down to S.334 Healthy Americans Act.

      Now it may be a better answer, but it's not clear it's an answer with support.

      "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

      by DemFromCT on Sun May 04, 2008 at 08:12:27 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  and the 'it' refers to single payer n/t (0+ / 0-)

        "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

        by DemFromCT on Sun May 04, 2008 at 08:16:26 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Thanks for the links.... (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        DemFromCT

        ....I still think we should fight for single-payer and let the chips fall where they may. Compromise should not be where you start, but where you end up. The non single payer option you point out defintely has potential and if single payer doesn't happen, this would be a VAST improvement.

        "...if my thought-dreams could be seen, they'd probably put my head in a guillotine...." {-8.13;-5.59}

        by lams712 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 08:28:14 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  interestingly (3+ / 0-)

          Healthy Americans Act Could Be Budget-Neutral by 2014 When Fully Implemented, According to CBO Report

          Given the divide in the electorate between cost and expanded coverage being the bigger priority, you can understand the bipartisan appeal of the Healthy Americans Act. Keep an eye on it...

          "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

          by DemFromCT on Sun May 04, 2008 at 08:32:59 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  projecting costs into future is key... (3+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            GayHillbilly, lams712, Pris from LA

            for the prospects of single payer. I think it's critical to keep raising the issue of where costs are going. Everybody gets that private insurance has not controlled costs, and there's no end in sight. Without single payer, the nation is caught in a bind. And it's a fiscal bind as well, because Medicare is set to become by far the biggest element in the budget deficit in coming decades. Medicare costs cannot be contained within a profit-driven health marketplace.

            Therefore if we retain a for-profit dominated health care industry, we'll be paying through the nose for a nationalized health care system (Medicare with its skyrocketing costs) that covers only a small fraction of Americans. Institute single payer now, however, and the budget deficit can be brought under control even with expanded health coverage.

    •  No, it's really not the only answer (7+ / 0-)

      Half the countries in Europe don't have single-payer, including some with excellent universal health care systems (the Netherlands, Germany and Switzerland, for example).

      "We're borrowing money from China to buy oil from the Persian Gulf to burn it in ways that destroy the planet." Al Gore

      by jd in nyc on Sun May 04, 2008 at 08:32:57 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  hi, jd (0+ / 0-)

        I was hoping you'd stop by...   ;-)

        Any words of wisdom on McCain's plan from your perspective?

        "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

        by DemFromCT on Sun May 04, 2008 at 08:33:56 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  What plan? (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Leap Year

          That was only partly a joke. There is so little "there" there in what McCain has said about his intentions that it's hard to call it a "plan."

          The crux of it, though, is that what McCain has suggested so far would solve few problems in health care and would cause larger new ones.

          Making health care marginally cheaper through tax breaks won't reduce the uninsured by very much. There is already lots of evidence that many will fall through the cracks when coverage is voluntary, even subsidized coverage (I'm not a fan of Obama on this point either). It needs to be basically automatic and required by law.

          McCain talks about some measures that will make a minor impact on the cost of care, such as promoting health information technology. It is unlikely they will reduce the cost of care. At best they would just help arrest the out-of-control growth, but are not by themselves able to lower the 17% of GDP we spend on health care to something more like the rest of the world (around 10%).

          We will never, ever control costs without changing the incentive system and how prices are set. Two things should happen: providers should stop being paid by the procedure (rewards volume of care rather than appropriate care) and government should help set prices. In many areas of the economy it truly is a bad idea for the government to set prices, but health care for necessary services is not one of them. McCain, needless to say, will actively resist both of these measures and misunderstands the incentives in the health care system to under-deliver care to a minority and over-deliver to the majority, at rates far higher than should be paid. He is less than useless on the basic economics of health care.

          As you mentioned, one of the biggest problems is that the most screwed up part of our current health insurance market is the individual market. Here is where almost all the horror stories about people being denied coverage, having their coverage rescinded for not disclosing pre-existing conditions, or finding out their coverage excludes all kinds of important things. So McCain, brilliantly, wants to put everyone in that individual market, without (to my knowledge) any protections for the individuals. You can't force insurers to cover anyone who applies unless you also force everyone to apply. McCain is unwilling to do either, and if congress were idiotic enough to let him get his way (it wouldn't be), we would have an epic disaster on our hands.

          "We're borrowing money from China to buy oil from the Persian Gulf to burn it in ways that destroy the planet." Al Gore

          by jd in nyc on Sun May 04, 2008 at 05:46:52 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  true, all of that (0+ / 0-)

            what about the radical McCain idea of doing away with employer based health care?

            "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

            by DemFromCT on Sun May 04, 2008 at 06:04:49 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  His version makes no sense (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              DemFromCT

              In the last paragraph of my previous comment I addressed this briefly. Naturally, it isn't that doing away with employer-sponsored health care is inherently a bad idea. Most nations with universal health care disintermediate the employer.

              However, those nations don't force the individual to fend for his or herself by purchasing their own insurance with their own discretionary income. They also don't let the insurer reject you for having prior conditions, or charge dramatically higher rates. McCain's version so far allows these things, and will take the worst part of our insurance system and apply it to everyone.

              As for the solution in a multi-payer system, you can't force an insurer to cover everyone who applies unless you also force (mandate) everyone to enter the system. I've sometimes heard defenders of Obama's plan say that the adverse selection won't be bad, or (incompatibly) that it will be bad and will in fact make insurers go out of business and bring about single payer. Neither of these options seems very likely to me. Insurers know better than anyone how adverse selection works, and they will strongly support a mandate-based universal health care plan and make alliances with public interest groups that are interested in results more than the purity of single payer. My hunch is that this support will be a critical element in making it happen if a Democrat is elected to the White House in November.

              "We're borrowing money from China to buy oil from the Persian Gulf to burn it in ways that destroy the planet." Al Gore

              by jd in nyc on Sun May 04, 2008 at 06:39:31 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I agree, and either (0+ / 0-)

                a mandated plan or Wyden's Healthy Americans plan or both will be on the table as a serious proposal after the election.

                And do read Multipayer Universal Healthcare: Why It Works by jd in nyc

                "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

                by DemFromCT on Sun May 04, 2008 at 06:48:36 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Thank you, again (1+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  DemFromCT

                  I wish I had the time and energy to write here more often. I confess that for my health care blogging I tend to go more often to places like Ezra Klein, Maggie Mahar and The Health Care Blog now. The Single Payer mantra is so strong on dKos, I basically have to start from scratch every time I try to point out that there are other systems that can work.

                  I think I may have a role explaining and defending elements of the plan that eventually gets presented in Congress and enacted into law (assuming a Democrat is in the White House and the bill isn't a disaster). Until then, I'll mostly keep lying low in these parts.

                  "We're borrowing money from China to buy oil from the Persian Gulf to burn it in ways that destroy the planet." Al Gore

                  by jd in nyc on Mon May 05, 2008 at 09:14:00 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  with respect (0+ / 0-)

                    please reconsider (and I read you there), during the primaries we have an audience of a million people a day, and double that on primary day. Education on issues that matter politically is part of our mission.  ;-)

                    Health care diaries will get read. And (as I remind my progressive colleagues) there's more than one approach, and the readers can grok more than one concept.

                    In any case, we'll need you back when wyden's plan gains steam...

                    "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

                    by DemFromCT on Tue May 06, 2008 at 04:08:24 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

      •  OECD Country Summaries for the Curious (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        jd in nyc

        Netherlands
        http://www.oecd.org/...

        Germany
        http://www.oecd.org/...

        Switzerland (unfortunately only in French or German)

        Others of interest:

        France (only available in French)

        Sweden
        http://www.oecd.org/...

        Britain
        http://www.oecd.org/...

        Spain (very good statistically on cost vs. outcome)
        http://www.oecd.org/...

        Canada
        http://www.oecd.org/...

        Japan
        http://www.oecd.org/...

        These are good overviews of costs (with public and private percentages), available resources, and outcomes, in only three pages each. Well worth reading.

        "In the end we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends." MLK, changed to this during the 2008 FISA fight

        by bewert on Sun May 04, 2008 at 11:07:38 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  TIME TO GET REAL (2+ / 0-)

    If A receives services from B that are paid for by C, then there is a strong incentive for both A and B respectively to demand and provide more services. If there are no checks on A and B,  C will ultimately have no ability to make the payments. Therefore the entire health care debate really boils down to a simple question of "who does the checking" There are several mechanisms

    a. allow the insurance companies to do so;
    b. by making consumers pay the first dollar (high deductible plans)give that power to individuals
    c. Have the government do so.

    I think much of the rhetoric "let doctors decide" is simply dishonest. Doctor's have too much of a conflict of interest to be the gate keepers of the system. So once again the choice is which of the gatekeepers do you want. In my judgment the only choice which doesn't work is one we currently have with insurance companies making decisions. At least a government system is subject to public oversight through our elected officials.

    •  the problem with high deductible consumer care (6+ / 0-)

      is the disinclination to spend money on preventative care, or prescription drugs. And should a minor hospitalization or ED visit truly be needed, the tendency is to put it off.

      "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

      by DemFromCT on Sun May 04, 2008 at 08:15:02 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  In the current system (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      nicolemm, barbwires, Pris from LA

      costs are completely opaque. Walk into an ER and ask for a pricelist. Ever had a nurse say, "I'm about to give you this shot of morphine, and you will be billed $74.32 for it, is that OK?" The fact is that with the variety of insurance possibilities, the nurse doesn't even know what it will cost you or cost your insurance company.

      The emphasis on money as the only factor in health care usage is also misplaced. If your local hospital advertised free hip replacements, today only, do you think anyone who didn't need one would show up? Surgeries and medications can have significant non-financial consequences in pain, suffering, and disability.

      The reality is that patients, and for that matter, doctors, don't have enough information on costs OR outcomes to be able to make ideal choices.

      Fry, don't be a hero! It's not covered by our health plan!

      by elfling on Sun May 04, 2008 at 08:17:31 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  why I don't like B (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Pris from LA

      the idea of giving consumers control sounds great, but it's very difficult in practice. Shopping for health care isn't like shopping for a used car, when you can easily go back and forth between sellers and get good information. If you are genuinely ill or injured, do you really have time and energy to figure out what the best deal is? And if you did, do you understand medical terminology anyway? I'm for single payer, I watched Sicko,too, and other countries look like they have some good systems in place.

      -7.75, -6.05 The point of the war in Iraq is that there IS a war in Iraq- Keith Olbermann

      by nicolemm on Sun May 04, 2008 at 08:19:12 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Oh, please (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Cali Scribe, shpilk, Tarantula Lady

      Doctor's have too much of a conflict of interest to be the gate keepers of the system.

      For every crooked doc who would let money sway their medical ethics, there are a hundred who are straight shooters. And no, I'm not snarking, I'm being honest. I'm a doc and I've been working with docs for the last 25 years. There are a few bad eggs. A FEW.

      I am so sick of this evil doctor meme.

      We drew our heavy revolvers (suddenly in the dream there were revolvers) and exultantly killed the gods. -- Jorge Luis Borges, Ragnarok

      by Hobbitfoot on Sun May 04, 2008 at 08:47:55 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  nothing to do with 'evil' (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Justanothernyer, Pris from LA

        but i think it's fair to say the gatekeeper primary care model failed to control costs but got everyone (including the specialists) pissed at the gatekeepers (who were docs).

        "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

        by DemFromCT on Sun May 04, 2008 at 09:05:12 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Really? (0+ / 0-)

          Honestly, is there more than just apocryphal accounts of this, or is it just like Reagan's 'Welfare Queen' canard?

          Every time you hear "McCain", shake those keys!

          by shpilk on Sun May 04, 2008 at 10:51:32 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  of course there is (0+ / 0-)

            it was called 'managed care'.

            As noted earlier, selective contracting is the central pillar upon which the power of the managed-care industry rests. That pillar, in turn, is anchored in the willingness of the insured to put up with limited choice of providers of health care at the time illness strikes. In its most concrete form, that limited choice model is the gate-keeper model, under which a primary-care physician effectively regulates the health care patients receive at the time of illness. As noted earlier as well, it took a recession and cowered employees to foist the principle of limited choice upon employees. In the meantime, however, the economy has been booming and labor markets have become tight. In such a market, generous fringe benefits are a come-on from which limited choice detracts. Thus, not surprisingly, the gate-keeper model in managed care has given way to point-of-service contracts (which allow procurement of care from outside the managed-care network of providers), direct access to specialists, and so on.

            In short, boom times in the economy have eroded the power of selective contracting and, thereby, clipped the wings of managed care. That industry finds it difficult now to control its outlays on medical care--especially on prescription drugs--because the industry is slouching once again towards something resembling nothing so much as warmed-over, fee-for-service indemnity insurance.

            In addition to this factor, which is truly beyond the industry's control, the industry itself has triggered a backlash through its clumsy techniques, some of which seem to be rooted in outright arrogance.

            http://www.pbs.org/...

            "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

            by DemFromCT on Sun May 04, 2008 at 11:03:10 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  My personal experience with my families own (0+ / 0-)

              physicians has not been this way: we have never had 'managed care', I've always opted out of that. I'd rather have a personal relationship with my own physician.

              I've never felt our physicians were recommending tests that were unnecessary, or increasing costs to pad some expected budget - until we got in a hospital setting.  Then I saw things I thought were not necessary happen; and I've seen that happen over and over again, too.

               

              Every time you hear "McCain", shake those keys!

              by shpilk on Sun May 04, 2008 at 11:09:19 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  some of that hospital stuff is defensive medicine (0+ / 0-)

                and some is poor training, and some is necessary but just doesn't look like it is.

                I don't miss the demise of physician gatekeepers. I prefer the relationship you describe.

                "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

                by DemFromCT on Sun May 04, 2008 at 11:18:19 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I think it really hurts (0+ / 0-)

                  that most doctors don't know their patients. They don't see them healthy... or if they did, it was for 12 minutes a couple of years ago. So it's hard to look at the person in front of you and say, you don't look right.

                  I think also that better data systems so that we can know, collectively, what approaches work, which ones work sometimes, and which ones don't work, is incredibly important.

                  Fry, don't be a hero! It's not covered by our health plan!

                  by elfling on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:59:15 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  yes, outcomes based data (0+ / 0-)

                    is vital. But as for "most docs don't know their patients', that's not true where I live.

                    OTOH, you have to pay for well visits some way (insurance or out of pocket or whatever), or they will not happen. You can't have something for nothing.

                    "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

                    by DemFromCT on Sun May 04, 2008 at 02:11:50 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  From my point of view (0+ / 0-)

                      I'm healthy. My daughter is healthy. Our docs don't know us. They simply don't see us very often. We've only lived here a couple of years, and I have to start over because my doctor moved away.

                      I have no problem with paying for well visits, but even so - 12 minutes once a year is a long road to getting to know someone. In the pediatrics practice, she might not even see the same doctor. Oh, and well child visits are 18 week lead time. They're just not set up to give us a chance to just meet each other.

                      Other people in my family, due to whatever circumstances, do see their docs more often, or have been with one doc for a long time. There's no question when I take them in that it makes a huge positive difference that the staff knows what is normal for that person.

                      What's funny is that my dentist knows me and my family far more intimately. In part that's because we all go to the same practice, and so they get a chance to meet and see all of us multiple times a year between all the visits.

                      Fry, don't be a hero! It's not covered by our health plan!

                      by elfling on Sun May 04, 2008 at 02:43:32 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

  •  Mr. McCain has only known gov't health care (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    barbwires, lams712, Pris from LA

    For his entire life, he has been covered by the government, as a military dependent, as a student in a military academy, in the military, as a veteran, and as a Senator. He literally has never experienced the private healthcare system.

    "Like most Americans, I see my doctor frequently."

    Senator McCain seems quite pleased with the healthcare he has received in his lifetime. He is a cancer survivor, after all. I have never heard him complain about a lack of care or long waits.

    Senator McCain, as a cancer survivor, would not be eligible to purchase his own health care as an individual. If he worked for a small business, he would send the rates for the whole company through the roof. Most likely that would mean that he, and the people who worked with him, would end up with insurance with many exclusions and a high deductible.

    I heard him mumble, in response to some commentary by Elizabeth Edwards, that he would add the ability for people with preexisting conditions to buy into a special plan. No comment about what that would cost. But in any case, he seemed to think that that would be just a small percentage of the population. From what I've seen in the California health care market, I would guess that over 50% of the population over 30 has some preexisiting condition (as defined by the health insurance industry), and perhaps far more. Until you've personally experienced the application process, I'm not sure it's possible to grasp how petty the issues can be that will alarm a health insurance company.

    I don't think he's contemplated the idea that the majority of citizens cannot purchase market-based health insurance - the only reason that most people have it is because government regulation forces insurers to write all comers in many instances. While I applaud the concept of forcing insurers to write all comers in all instances, somehow I doubt that's what McCain has in mind when he talks about his free-market approach.

    Fry, don't be a hero! It's not covered by our health plan!

    by elfling on Sun May 04, 2008 at 08:10:24 AM PDT

    •  He was asked this directly (0+ / 0-)

      at his health care townhall meeting in Cleveland on Thursday. His answer was "I'll reach out to the governors to help come up with ideas." An evasive way of saying "I don't have a clue."

      We're retiring Steve LaTourette (R-Family Values for You But Not for Me) and sending Judge Bill O'Neill to Congress from Ohio-14: http://www.oneill08.com/

      by anastasia p on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:27:19 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Um, what, exactly is worse about the Canadian (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    alasmoses, Pris from LA

    system than the American?  I've had one medical emergency and have a chronic disease, neither of which has bankrupted me.  Yes, I pay a lot of taxes here in Canada, but 'tis the price we pay. Yes, wait times are too long for some procedures, but again, 'tis the price we pay.
    So what is so bad about our Canadian system compared to the American? I really want to know what McCain means here.

    Family caregivers are unpaid not because they are worthless, but because they are priceless.

    by Dorey on Sun May 04, 2008 at 08:12:44 AM PDT

    •  The argument about having to wait is one (4+ / 0-)

      they use all the time here. How about that I have to wait for 6 months for a colonoscopy? Or several months to see a dermatologist? Or a mammogram? How many here have ever walked into their doc's office and been taken in at the time of their appointment?
      We wait too. But we don't get nearly the services you all get. i wouldn't mind paying a tax if I know it is going to go to the program for which it was intended.

      "In a time of universal deceit -- telling the truth is a revolutionary act."

      by MA Liberal on Sun May 04, 2008 at 08:34:59 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I've had to wait 3 months for appointment with (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        GayHillbilly, MA Liberal

        orthopod I've seen for 4 years; then wait 2 -4.5 hourspast time  to actually get called back to exam room  for my scheduled appointment. Never , never would have been allowed to perform so poorly at my job.
        I fired his ass ; now he can do without my insurance , such as it is , and my savings , such as they were.  And this is in America's great free market economy.

      •  I have had to wait 6 months for a mammogram... (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        MA Liberal

        ...and that's at my 'po folks clinic. OK, a Senator with a gold-plated health care plan could probably get one with a snap of her fingers, but not most people who either have to deal with community or charity clinics or with managed care under employer-provided insurance.

        Rationing of health care is real, it's here, but in the US it's not fair. Rationing of health care is done in the US on an "ability to pay" basis. Rationing of health care in single-payer systems is done pretty much across the board, in an eminently fair manner. Unless you pay extra for supplemental insurance, in which case you can somewhat "jump the line."

        McCain = Death.
        "No way, no how, no McCain!" -- Hillary Clinton

        by Pris from LA on Sun May 04, 2008 at 10:47:16 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Please, if you could, detail the "lot of taxes" (5+ / 0-)

      specifically going to health care.

      Likewise, the "some procedures".

      I'll add up premiums, deductibles, co-pays, out of pocket for denied treatment, the salary hit I take because I have to keep a job for insurance, all of my dental expenses, all of my medication expenses, mental health and preventive costs and the anxiety and grief of being one pink slip and one illness away from financial ruin.

      Good lord, I wish some of this energy spent equivocating on 'universal health care' would be spent educating the public on single payer.

      Would you ever trade your system for ours?
      Do you ever travel to the U.S. without buying health insurance?

      Have you ever been denied medically necessary treatment or kicked out of your hospital bed by an insurance accountant?

      •  I would never trade the Canadian system for (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Ozzie, Leap Year

        what little I know of the American system (which is, admittedly, very little).
        I have never traveled to or through the US without health insurance and my family's assurance that they would move heaven and earth to get me home if I became ill or injured.
        Here at home I have used private insurance to "jump the line" for an MRI - got one in 5 days rather than waiting 6 months.  Other than that, I wait my turn.
        I do know that if I had a catastrophic heart attack, or stroke or whatever, or a motor vehicle accident, or diagnosed with cancer, I would be treated without cost. That knowledge is, in itself, priceless.

        Family caregivers are unpaid not because they are worthless, but because they are priceless.

        by Dorey on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:16:18 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  You are without a doubt .... (0+ / 0-)

          one of the lucky ones , I might say - top of the food chain . I work a union job , pay into the plan , get screwed left and right (sorry out of network - must call ahead for approval - high deductible - not a covered service ). You name it . I can't wait to go on Medicare when I tell them all to kiss my ass . Then if I get REAL sick I die with dignity .

  •  what this doc would like to see (6+ / 0-)

    An income tax to pay for health care. A REAL income tax, a straight percentage of income, or perhaps a graduated percentage as in our current system, but a tax for which there would be no wiggle room. Individuals and corporations alike would pay for it, but you could have corporations pay at a higher rate, perhaps. (The advantage to the corporations? They no longer have to pay for insurance for their employees.)

    This way, if you make nothing, you pay nothing extra and you're still insured. Not sure it could get much fairer than this IMHO.

    We drew our heavy revolvers (suddenly in the dream there were revolvers) and exultantly killed the gods. -- Jorge Luis Borges, Ragnarok

    by Hobbitfoot on Sun May 04, 2008 at 08:13:54 AM PDT

    •  Fine (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Hobbitfoot, Pris from LA

      but unearned income should also be taxed.

      Democrats give you the Bill of Rights; Republicans sell you a bill of goods!

      by barbwires on Sun May 04, 2008 at 09:00:55 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Totally agree! (0+ / 0-)

      Why are corporations(except for the obvious Insurance Co.'s) not jumping at this?  They should be the first people pounding on the door for Single Payer to happen.  

      I have to deal with Ins. Co's just a very little bit in one part of my job, and I hate it.  Everything about it is a hassle and a stress.  I can't even imagine being at the corporate level and having to deal with them for 1200 employees.  To get out from under that hassle and expense in time and effort would be so beneficial to the bottom line, that I just don't understand why they aren't out in front on this.

      And an income tax would be SO EASY to implement!

      When England went to NHS, many people complained about it and the leaders just said Tough, this is what we are doing.  What I wouldn't do to see someone do that here...

      What they'll do if Obama wins? The current level of hysteria suggests they'll blast off to the moon on a flaming column of fear propulsed diarrhea.

      by faction on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:40:15 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Last night I spent 10 min explaining McSame's (5+ / 0-)

    health care destruction plan to Mrs. Sam.
    She was thoroughly appalled.
  •  It SHOULD BE National Health Care (7+ / 0-)

    McCain is wrong in that Clinton and Obama propose trying to provide universal health care with the current failed health care system.

    The problem is Clinton and Obama SHOULD have proposed Medicare For All (HR 676) so that the debate was about the US moving to a more efficient, more effective, more socially responsible health care system.

  •  McCain's plan, (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Cali Scribe, barbwires, Pris from LA

    will be a huge tax increase on middle income families who do have employer sponsored health insurance.

    CHRISTIAN, n. One who believes that the New Testament is a divinely inspired book admirably suited to the spiritual needs of his neighbor. A. Bierce

    by irate on Sun May 04, 2008 at 08:20:15 AM PDT

  •  Why can't the Democrats frame this debate?!?!?!? (4+ / 0-)

    Americans must have universal health care, single-payer universal health care. Anything less is unacceptable!
    so when John McBush goes around bashing the government he so wants to serve, saying that we don't want big government running health care, Obama (or, OK, Hillary) should come out and say "John McCain doesn't like government-run health care, except for himself. When John McCain needed treatment, he got it, and YOU paid for it."
    We need to remind Americans that every other industrialized country pays for health insurance for their citizens, and it works pretty damn well. Ask anyone in France, England, Canada or Australia if they'd trade our system for theirs. Go ahead. (crickets).
    Democrats need to tell people that other countries have it and so should we. it only makes sense and is cheaper in the long run. And as for the whole "government can't do it right" argument, how about Social Security? How about Medicare? When the government is run by people who care about its running well (i.e. Democrats) we have programs that work and less waste.
    Republicans do noting but waste money or give it to the rich. They don't give a damn about the average American, or making our system work. They don't need good public education 'cause their kids go to private schools. They don't need to worry about health insurance 'cause they can afford it. They don't need fire and police protection because they can pay for their own (and, yes, private fire protection is already here). But who is really paying for it? YOU. And ME.
    C'mon Dems, don't be afraid. Tell the American people stright out that they are getting royally screwed.

    "In a time of universal deceit -- telling the truth is a revolutionary act."

    by MA Liberal on Sun May 04, 2008 at 08:21:23 AM PDT

    •  the issue for the pols is the polls (0+ / 0-)

      "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

      by DemFromCT on Sun May 04, 2008 at 08:27:48 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Democrats , rather than demo crats , are too (0+ / 0-)

      often snouting around in the same rich troughs as their counterparts on the other side of the wallow. Er , aisle.Bribes , er contributions , are highly coveted and eagerly accdepted. There aren't any poor people , I really dooubt middle calss people serving in either house of Congress. And rich people don't get that way by givning a damn about anyone else.

    •  And remind people (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Pris from LA

      that we're losing job opportunities because of it -- I remember a year or so ago, when Toyota was deciding where to locate a new plant, they chose Canada instead of the US (either TN or KY) because of the health insurance situation -- administering multiple plans adds cost to Human Resources, and is a pain in the ass to boot.

      If single-payer could be portrayed as benefitting business as well as individual citizens, we might have a better time selling it -- for one thing, it would put businesses on a more even level when it comes to attracting employees.

  •  From McCain (4+ / 0-)

    Americans can expect during this campaign to hear much of the same, tired Republican talking points we've heard for eight years.

    Senator McCain wants the magic of the marketplace to produce cheap health care for everyone – as if that’s worked thus far.

    Upon reading his website's brief, single-page list of bullet points on "health care reform", note the weasel words that are used: McCain "supports" and "encourages" and "promotes" and "allows" lots of things (including the virtual privatization of the Veterans Health system, one of the few clear success stories in the struggle to contain health care costs).

    He opposes any mandate for coverage, even of children. He would use tax credits of $2500 for individuals and $5000 for families to encourage everyone to obtain and maintain coverage. He would continue promotion of Health Savings Accounts. He encourages personal responsibility. He promotes efforts to prevent chronic diseases. He promotes the adoption of health information technology, without offering resources for implementation. He supports innovative delivery systems. You get the point.

    Bottom Line: McCain's plan will do little or nothing to help reduce the numbers of uninsured, to control runaway costs, or to help American businesses to stay competitive.

    Great diary, demfromCT.

  •  John McCain has a health plan...WALK it off (5+ / 0-)

    Did anyone hear his plan the other day? He said that if you walk and eat right, you won't need health care.
    What a moron. Guess he wasn't following his own advice though, since clearly his melanoma was the result of bad diet and lack of exercise!

    "In a time of universal deceit -- telling the truth is a revolutionary act."

    by MA Liberal on Sun May 04, 2008 at 08:24:24 AM PDT

    •  really (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      MA Liberal

      The man - and all the Rethugs - are just astonishing.  I mean:

      ...encourage people to become more prudent consumers of health care and use less health care overall.

      Like health care is discretionary spending like, oh, eating out a few times a week or something? It's HEALTHCARE you fucking maniacs! Do you think I go get x-rays or physicals for FUN? Holy shit I can't believe them.

      Tiberius to the Roman Senate upon their assurance that they would pass whatever laws he liked: "How eager you all are to be slaves."

      by StudentThinker on Sun May 04, 2008 at 11:47:08 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  McCain strategically appealing to already insured (5+ / 0-)

    McCain and the Republicans are making a strategic political decision. They know that the uninsured and the underinsured are not going to vote for him anyway, so he is trying to make his appeal to those who already have decent insurance by promising a tax credit. This is similar to Bush's privatization of social security attempt that said, "We can maximize your returns on your payroll tax investment in social security by letting you put it in private equities, and damn those for whom this is not an option."

    But he really hasn't thought this through. The $5K tax credit will buy nothing. The average cost for a family's insurance is $12k. Furthermore, the loss of a tax credit to businesses will cause them to drop coverage. Even the insurance companies will not like less money available to buy their policies.

    In the end all he has is false slogans. "Socialism." "No choice of doctors." "We'll be like Europe and Canada."

    •  I agree. That's how he will sell it to the public (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      barbwires, Pris from LA

      But what he is really doing is taking care of business as usual. Everyone knows that corporate America has be whining that they can't compete with overseas companies that do not pay for health insurance.

      McCain's plan is a way for companies to stop offering health insurance to their employees.

      There. Now they can compete. Get it?

    •  And voters who hear "we'll be like europe" (3+ / 0-)

      with the exception of the hard core wingnuts, are thinking to themselves, "that doesn't sound so bad."

    •  It is exactly that, they are appealing to their (0+ / 0-)

      base, and using buzzwords and fear to scare the ignorant who make up the majority of the electorate, the ones that catch the sound bite on the TeeVee, and the vapid "analysis" offered by corporate media hacks.

      Every time you hear "McCain", shake those keys!

      by shpilk on Sun May 04, 2008 at 11:20:52 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Actually, those are the people (0+ / 0-)

      his plan should appeal to LEAST if we frame it properly. I've heard it said the main rap against single-payer is peoples' fear of the unknown and their more-or-less satisfaction with their employer-provided health care.

      The problem with McBush's plan is that he will strip the insurance from those who have decent insurance right now, and I don't think this is at all hidden. He flat-out said at the health-care forum here Thursday that His plan would free consumers from being at the "mercy" of having employers make health care choices for them. And most people can do the math and figure out that the tax credit won't cover what they get now from their employer; they also understand the lack of negotiating power you have as an individual.

      We're retiring Steve LaTourette (R-Family Values for You But Not for Me) and sending Judge Bill O'Neill to Congress from Ohio-14: http://www.oneill08.com/

      by anastasia p on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:38:59 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Bless you for showing independents' lean (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    DemFromCT, smintheus, Pris from LA

    I get so, so sick of this crapaganda that anyone registered "independent" is some "in the middle" person demanding that Democrats act like Republicans.

    A whole lot of registered independents lean EITHER strongly liberal or strongly conservative, and it's electorally more meaningful for Democrats to pursue the liberal-leaning independents than abandon them for the mish-mash "undecideds".