Daily Kos

Disasters, Surge and Pandemics

Sun May 11, 2008 at 07:53:32 AM PDT

So here are some cheery headlines to catch your eye:

US: Hospital ERs overwhelmed, one-day study finds (May 5)

A one-day snapshot of emergency room conditions at 34 U.S. hospitals shows they are all overwhelmed and none is prepared to handle a big event like a disaster or attack.

Bird flu pandemic risk just as real and probably growing (May 8)

Experts are warning that the risk of a human bird flu pandemic remains just as real and is in fact probably growing.

Doctors debate who would be allowed to die in pandemic (May 5)

Doctors know some patients needing lifesaving care won't get it in a flu pandemic or other disaster. The gut-wrenching dilemma will be deciding who to let die.

Together, they illustrate a dilemma. On the one hand, US hospitals are already strained, and can't really handle any more stress (see  Medical Crisis: The Shape Of Things To Come). On the other hand, any kind of major disaster, be it a Katrina-size storm or a pandemic, will add more patients and more demands to a medical system already maxed out, particularly when it comes to emergency departments and intensive care units (see Pandemic Challenges For Hospitals.) From the WaPo back in February:

The federal government's voluminous plans for dealing with pandemic flu do not adequately account for the overwhelming strain an outbreak would place on hospitals and public health systems trying to cope with millions of seriously ill Americans, some public health experts and local health officials say.

It's a problem. After all, from wildfires to tornadoes, natural disasters happen. So what does one do? A relatively new approach to major disasters after Katrina is to realistically appraise the numbers and try and figure out how hospitals can cope... see Hospital Surge, Exercises and Pandemics. And when they can't, well, at that point, when patients outnumber the available beds and equipment to take care of them, tough decisions need to be made.

...an influential group of physicians has drafted a grimly specific list of recommendations for which patients wouldn't be treated. They include the very elderly, seriously hurt trauma victims, severely burned patients and those with severe dementia.

The suggested list was compiled by a task force whose members come from prestigious universities, medical groups, the military and U.S. government agencies. They include the Department of Homeland Security, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and the Department of Health and Human Services.

The proposed guidelines are designed to be a blueprint for hospitals "so that everybody will be thinking in the same way" when pandemic flu or another widespread health-care disaster hits, said Dr. Asha Devereaux. She is a critical care specialist in San Diego and lead writer of the task force report.

For anyone interested in the details, the medical journal CHEST has made the task force report available (in several parts) for free.

Now, whenever we talk about hospital surge and rationing, there's bound to be people that get upset. But in reality, it's much better to talk about these things in advance rather than avoiding the topic, having no plan and having a disaster hit. And limited beds, limited supplies and limited personnel (shortages of space, staff and stuff) will force these unpleasant rationing choices upon us, like it or not. That's why California and New York have both looked at versions of this. In addition, the nature of infectious disease outbreaks, with the possibility of quarantine and isolation, have raised civil liberties issues of a different sort (see The ACLU, Pandemic Preparedness, and You).

So, step back and look at the big picture. The sheer size and scope of disasters require a completely different approach than medical 'business as usual', yet that means bringing in ethical and legal issues (e.g., rationing) that our political candidates like to avoid (except when they are accusing the other guy of advocating it). But don't let the politicians fool you. As illustrated in today's post, looking at rationing is now a mainstream part of evaluating hospital disaster care, and an arguably appropriate response to shortages.

The California Department of Public Health recently released the first comprehensive surge guidelines for health care during a catastrophic emergency.

The new "surge capacity guidelines"  - which authorities hope will serve as guidlines for hospitals nationwide, especially in the event of a pandemic - calls for letting older, sicker patients be allowed to die in order to save the lives of patients more likely to survive a catastrophic public health crisis.

By the way, this is a topic (health reform, disaster preparedness and the state of disrepair of public health infrastructure) the Presidential candidates need to address. At the same time, looking at "gut-wrenching dilemmas" needs to be done openly and with the input and participation of the public. You certainly don't want decisions like these to be made without you, do you?

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Tags: pandemic preparedness (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 214 comments

  •  I suggest people read up on the... (10+ / 0-)

    Spanish Influenza pandemic of 1918.  There were so many dead there weren't enough coffins in places like Philadelphia and San Francisco.

    We've been through it before...and the next time it will be even worse.

    We are unprepared...we will always be unprepared for the unthinkable.

    Try as you might, you cannot spell HOPE with the letters GOP.

    by David Kroning on Sun May 11, 2008 at 07:57:25 AM PDT

    •  I heard it on the radio.... (4+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Eloise, jds1978, dolphin777, David Kroning

      They would forego the elderly, alzheimers people, and I can't remember the others.  I think it was burn victims and other severely ill/injured.  If we had to ration, it made some sense anyway.

      They're asking for another four years -- in a just world, they'd get 10 to 20 ~~ Dennis Kucinich

      by dkmich on Sun May 11, 2008 at 08:15:15 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  You're right. This is nothing new (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      dolphin777

      Anyone who remembers M*A*S*H will remember the scenes in Triage, before the casualties are taken into the Operating room. What to you think they were doing?

      They were evaluating who needed teh available resources fastest - and could benefit from them - and so got into the OR first. Then, those who were not so urgent got in later.

      But what about those who could not benefit rapidly or who would tie up OR resources for lengthy periods of time in which several others could be saved? Those patients are set aside and offered Palliative care (prayer and hand-holding by someone who is unskilled in medicine) until they die.

      This is a standard part of medical care in every disaster or battle, and has been since at least the Civil War. The only real question is what standards will be applied.

      Medical care providers have been having this discussion for as long as people have planned emergency medical care, and it is a standard part of the training of an emergency room surgeon or nurse. Someone has to predetermine the priorities for use of medically required human, facility and equipment resources.

      Democrats stand for Liberty, Security, Support of Families and Opportunity Whiskey Tango Foxtrot - over

      by Rick B on Sun May 11, 2008 at 11:20:33 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  The (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Kestrel228, dolphin777

      reason we are unprepared is because so many find confronting the cold hard realities of life to be unthinkable.
      We have systems in place to alleviate the unthinkable risk of fire destroying our homes & communities.
      We can and must do better with respect to our public health systems.

      Public health is a national security imperative.

    •  PBS did an excellent program on 1918 pandemic. (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      DemFromCT

      IIRC, it was anniversary, so must've been 1998(?) Ironically, I watched from my couch under a mile-high pile of blankets. I was in recovering mode from the flu!

      I'm not surprised-- nor shocked-- that mention is now being made of applying "triage". No doubt if residents of Mother's nursing home fell ill, she'd be made comfortable-- and permitted to die! As would potentially many other residents.

      Mother's dob: June 1, 1907!! As an 11 y.o. resident of Philly, Mother witnessed those horrible events. When I was a youngster hearing Mother and my Nana recount the stories, put much down to hyperbole: it was too Pythonesque (spp?) to be believable.

      While watching PBS, however, wasn't the half of it!!
      The b/w archival footage showed bodies, wrapped in bedsheets, on the various porches -- awaiting P.U.

      During Katrina, believe triage was already being put into play by medical staff-- tho no one wants to discuss it.

      IIRC History Channel, and/or Discovery  have also done programs. There are a few outstanding books, one of which I read after PBS -- once I was sufficiently well to get to local library!

      I observed that island enviro a closed lab for flu bugs: I got sicker here, for longer and with a couple relapses-- than I'd evvah been in my life. So when MD suggested innoculation, I went for it.

      For three successive years, a sore arm was my only complaint. Then changed physicians, had the shot-- and had a massive allergic reaction! OMFG!! Allergist did alot of tests, literally running out of flesh on which to test. But nuthin' was conclusive. I'm 71 y.o., and honestly feel pretty vulnerable.

      Aloha   ..  ..  ..

  •  We pay so frackin' much for health care in this (5+ / 0-)

    country-- to doctors, to pharmaceutical companies, to HMOs, to insurance companies, to executives-- that it is completely incomprehensible how ERs can be overwhelmed.  What the fuck are they doing with their money, those hospitals?  What the hell are the corporations that own hospitals doing with their obscene profits, if the money's not being used to deliver better and more complete care?  

    •  Pocketing the profits. n/t (6+ / 0-)

      Float like a manhole cover, sting like a sash weight. John McCain = Old Boat Anchor

      by JeffW on Sun May 11, 2008 at 08:00:05 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Well, I work at a non-profit hospital (9+ / 0-)

      All of the profits we make go right back into infrastructure and the community. We are constantly going on discharge alerts. Lack of beds, length of patient stay, lack of nurses all are part of the reason  why the ER is overwhelmed. Not to mention, the repeat gunshot victims, severe COPD cases, car wrecks resulting from drunken driving, etc.

      It's really not just a matter of money.

      hink

      Hyperbole will be the death of us all!

      by MrHinkyDink on Sun May 11, 2008 at 08:18:45 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  If it is a 501C3, nonprofit does not (5+ / 0-)

        mean no profits for the hospital. Several hospitals are in hot water over disproportionate share funds which are paid by the feds to hospitals to cover their losses.

        501C3s as nonprofits are supposed to provide a certain amount of charity care but many hospitals have gotten in the habit of claiming contractual write-offs and collection accounts as "charity" and then correcting the accounts in future years should they receive payment.
        CMS and the IRS are cracking down on this practice, now by requiring that hospitals write off the debt and not try to collect it in any manner before it can be considered charity. However, in this state, there is a state law allowing public hospitals to have the state recover any hospital bills owed to them from the taxpayer's state income tax refund. This is still being used as a mechanism to allow some hospitals to have their cake and eat it too.  

      •  What do you do, (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        MrHinkyDink, Eloise, dolphin777

        if you don't mind?

        Yeah, every business [of any type] is usually set up to use the least resources--directly contrary to the needs of any large emergency.

        Bush's presidency is now inextricably yoked to the policies of aggression and subjugation. Mike Whitney

        by dfarrah on Sun May 11, 2008 at 08:26:43 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Why do you think money is so scarce? (6+ / 0-)

        Someone is sucking money out of the system, and it isn't patients or doctors or nurses.

        It's large insurance companies and health care corporations such as Tenet. They rob the medical system blind and everyone suffers.

        An eye for an eye and the whole world will be blind.

        by rini6 on Sun May 11, 2008 at 08:57:44 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Actual care costs are going up (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Eirene

          more than 10% per year.  The insurance companies may be making a profit but don't let that blind you to the fact that the rest of the system is absorbing money at an astonishing rate.

          •  that is true (0+ / 0-)

            some of it is drug costs. Some goes to physicians. I still think that physicians wrok extremely long hours and don't do nearly as well as pharma or insurance CEO's.

            An eye for an eye and the whole world will be blind.

            by rini6 on Sun May 11, 2008 at 12:04:40 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  But there are a lot more Physicians (0+ / 0-)

              Than there are pharma or insurance CEO's.  So, while they don't make as much money individually, collectively they make much more.

              I'm not saying that they are overpaid and underworked, but they do cost a lot of money, as do nurses and other health care professionals.  A pharmicist said, in a discussion on this site, that they estimated the cost of dispensing perscriptions to be $10 each.  That's not for drugs or big pharma, that's dispensing overhead.

              The system utilizes a lot of human labor -- which is ever rising in cost.  We need to find ways of lowering the transaction costs and providing health care in tiered fashion utilizing automation, and lower level practicioners for basic care and utilizing the highly trained physicions on exceptions.

              •  I am not going to worry about health care costs (0+ / 0-)

                until the CEO of US healthcare earns less money.

                Spending on real healthcare for people sounds like a good use of resources to me. Of course, we should spread the healthcare to needy areas and we should spend more on prevention. However, I see a lot of waste in government (military contracts?) that could be cut first.  If we spent a fraction of what we spend in Iraq on health care.....

                I'm sure you've heard that before, but that's how I feel.

                An eye for an eye and the whole world will be blind.

                by rini6 on Mon May 12, 2008 at 06:21:13 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  You need to look at numbers (0+ / 0-)

                  In 2007, the U.S. spent a projected $2.26 trillion on health care.  The Iraq war cost $400-500 billion or about 20% of that.  If we spent all of what we spend in Iraq on health care, it wouldn't cover the uninsured.  It would cover the next couple years of growth in costs.

                  Healthcare CEO's make too much money, but if they worked for free it wouldn't make much of a dent in the 2.26 trillion cost.

                  We need to actually look at how we spend the money.  How can we provide the care to more for less actual expenses.  Pretending some fat cat is getting all the money ignores the real problem.

                  •  Ok, (0+ / 0-)

                    we should look. You definitely have all the numbers at your fingertips.

                    I do think that end of life care is often too aggressive. In addition, preventative treatment can be  (not always) cheaper than the ER. Also epidemiology  is important. Why is asthma increasing?  What risk factors for cancer can be modified?

                    Still, I think that many health care workers are not seeing the 2.26 trillion as a huge paycheck. Maybe it's just the number of healthcare professionals? Maybe it's administrative costs?  I still see undertreated patients.

                    An eye for an eye and the whole world will be blind.

                    by rini6 on Tue May 13, 2008 at 03:26:27 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

    •  Um, hospitals are not "pocketing" anything (9+ / 0-)

      It's the healthcare corporations that own them and the CEO's.

      Doctors and nurses get a SALARY. They often scramble to help patients get meds and finagle health insurance coverage when possible. They have to discharge patients before they are ready because of insurance.

      I do think that doctors are a little embedded with big pharma. They get samples and meals. Some get speaking fees. They do not get paid directly to write scripts, though.

      As someone who trained in the ER as part of her residency and now is in private practice, I can tell you that hospital docs and ER docs are the most  overworked and least paid.

      Personally, national health care would take care of a lot of problems. The leaches that currently profit off of health care, such as big insurance, without actually giving any health care would be out of business. Of course, they have a lot of influence in D.C., so don't hold your breath.

      An eye for an eye and the whole world will be blind.

      by rini6 on Sun May 11, 2008 at 08:56:16 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Not all docs (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        bushondrugs, Eirene

        Some of them took the Pharm Code of Ethics seriously and closed their drug rooms, preferring to rely on coupons instead of storing meds on site and having to practice due diligence in maintaining them and records of their disposal.
        Others have cut out the meals and gifts from the pharm reps. Ironically, many doctors are not aware that the drug detailers are taking staff out to lunch (though many are) in that the drug reps realize the nurses and receptionists guarantee them access so they make sure these staff are invited to lunch and get samples for themselves and family members.

        Staff members have been fired over the issue of accepting samples and meals from drug reps but I know of at least one former receptionist who still shows up at the local steakhouse for their medical dinners though she is now driving a FedEx truck.  

      •  Doctors are definitely embedded with big pharma (0+ / 0-)

        some to a greater, some to a lesser extent.  The woman who used to be my primary doctor married a pharm rep and her partner in the practice, who is my neighbor, tells me about how the office has really changed since the doctor married this guy.  Apparently she is constantly asking the office if they can accept lunches from pharmaceutical people and they do a lot more with pharm contacts through this woman's husband, than they used to.

        By the way, I did include the corporations that own hospitals in my rant.  There's a lot of blame to go around, and I think this is one situation in which any individual actor, or small cluster of actors, will see his/her/their situations as the exception, because he/she/they are down in the trenches day in and day out, and there's no time to come up for air and see the big picture.  

        I happen to think that many medical professionals are indeed overpaid for what they do, BUT I also know that malpractice insurance is absolutely eating away at doctors.  And I do know that there's a big difference between a hospital staff ER doc and a doc in private practice doing something like urology, in terms of earnings.

    •  Most hospitals are not rolling in dough (4+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Rick B, concernedamerican, alizard, Eirene

      But it's true that just-in-time strategies to use money efficiently, like not having too many empty beds under ordinary conditions, are completely incompatible with the goal of taking care of every sick/injured patient during a disaster.

      Thing is, hospitals are punished every day for having excess slack capacity. They have no financial loss if people die because there was no capacity to treat a surge of patients.

      As a people, we have to come to terms with this. And, if we want to be able to treat everyone in even a moderate disaster, such as a suicide bomber in a major American city (the kind that happen every week in Iraq), we need to be willing to pay ER docs to stand around looking bored and to pay hospitals to maintain a wing of normally unused beds and ER stations.

      Fry, don't be a hero! It's not covered by our health plan!

      by elfling on Sun May 11, 2008 at 11:00:22 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  There Have To Be Creative Solutions (0+ / 0-)

        My nearest hospital has a nursing home and a building with dr's offices nearby. How about using those facilities for excess capacity once certain patients are stabilized?

        Okay, maybe that wouldn't work. But brainstorming hasn't gone out of style while we weren't looking, has it?

        I no longer read The New York Times for the news, I read it for the lie. --Chalmers Johnson

        by JG in MD on Sun May 11, 2008 at 11:12:01 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  nursing homes would work (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          JG in MD

          that's exactly what we did in our drill.. using skilled nursing faciilites, we identified (at the moment of the drill) 70 extra beds for our community hospital to use in an emergency. However, we also identified that we'd need home care taught and provided.

          http://www.getpandemicready.org/

          "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

          by DemFromCT on Sun May 11, 2008 at 11:17:44 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Aren't those places already full? (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            JG in MD

            Or is that assuming that there would be beds freed up by having fewer new admits during an emergency period (for example, no joint replacement surgeries for the duration)?

            Fry, don't be a hero! It's not covered by our health plan!

            by elfling on Sun May 11, 2008 at 01:05:43 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  those that could be sent home were sent home (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              JG in MD

              and they are not completely full.

              That several private nursing homes would band together and work with the hospital and public health (all different entities) is a testament to a small community and its perception of need.

              "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

              by DemFromCT on Sun May 11, 2008 at 01:26:11 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  What's so incomprehensible? (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      alizard, dolphin777

      We have no planned medical system. We have a free market in which each individual health provider determines what likely medical need will provide the greatest profit and then moves to fill that need.

      Under the conservative philosophy of medical care the purpose of everyone in it is to make the greatest possible profit. That they do this by providing medical care is a mere side-effect of profit-making.

      Each individual medical supplier is supposed to be left free and unimpeded to make their own plans and determine what to do to achieve their personal goals. Overall advance planning is actively discouraged or given no authority to enforce plans by conservative politicians! This is the kind of government planning that the conservative free marketers actively sabotage at every turn.

      Emergency medicine is an irregular business, so reliable profits are highly uncertain. Individual profit-seekers will not rationally choose to provide services to such an unpredictable market, especially one in which everyone who shows up at the door must be cared for regardless of ability to pay. Since reliable profits are so uncertain, it is necessary that those who do attempt to make a profit at this kind of medicine charge very high prices for their services. The money they do collect has to be enough to cover the extended periods when they are sitting in a fully equipped and staffed emergency room with nothing to do and no revenue. Providing emergency medical care for profit is a lot like treasure hunting. Only big treasures are worth going after.

      Since we do not in America have a planned health care system, emergency medicine is provided on an ad hoc basis by local authorities if and when they can get the funding. The funding is further limited by the Grover Norquists and their "No New Taxes!" chant.

      This will remain true until there is an overall planned and properly and reliably financed health care system established in America as their has already been in the civilized industrial world. You will notice that besides being planned, it also must cover everyone who shows up at the door for care, which means universal health care financing.

      Democrats stand for Liberty, Security, Support of Families and Opportunity Whiskey Tango Foxtrot - over

      by Rick B on Sun May 11, 2008 at 11:43:11 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yup, and everything you lay out here is, simply, (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        alizard

        incomprehensible to me as a rational person.  You are able to describe it clearly and in a matter of fact manner.  But to me that's akin to somebody calmly reciting the factors involved in absolute disaster.  Just saying it all clearly and calmly, though, doesn't make a catastrophe any more comprehensible to those who are experiencing it.  

        •  What is incomprehensible to me (0+ / 0-)

          is that all of this is so clear, the results of it are obvious to anyone who looks around, and yet no one has done anything about it since Harry Truman called for National Health care in 1948.

          The cause and result are easily comprehensible. It is the refusal to act to correct the problems that is beyond comprehension.

          Democrats stand for Liberty, Security, Support of Families and Opportunity Whiskey Tango Foxtrot - over

          by Rick B on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:55:30 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  You should (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Eloise, dolphin777, bushondrugs

    send your diaries to every mayor and governor [if you aren't already].

    We really need a national mandatory job corp to train people so we can help out with disasters.

    Bush's presidency is now inextricably yoked to the policies of aggression and subjugation. Mike Whitney

    by dfarrah on Sun May 11, 2008 at 08:04:34 AM PDT

    •  every governor is aware (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Eloise, dolphin777

      locally, the mayors and town leaders are aware. But especially locally, it's spotty.

      "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

      by DemFromCT on Sun May 11, 2008 at 08:06:12 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Well, I know (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Eloise, redtex

        there is awareness.  Even Denver, where I live, has an emergency preparedness plan--it's right by my phone.

        However, what seems to be lacking is citizen training and participation.  We should be doing dry runs of various disasters, just like financial companies do--like establishing roles for the able bodied, assign people to check up on/help the disabled,  and back-up roles at a block level or school district level. etc.

        To me, just sending out a plan isn't sufficient.

        Bush's presidency is now inextricably yoked to the policies of aggression and subjugation. Mike Whitney

        by dfarrah on Sun May 11, 2008 at 08:14:06 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  agree 100% (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Eloise, dolphin777

          "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

          by DemFromCT on Sun May 11, 2008 at 08:27:31 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  mypoint exactly! (5+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            alizard, Eloise, dolphin777, JG in MD, redtex

            I'm glad I read to the bottom of the thread.  Middle and High schools used to have more robust training in first aid, however, there is no follow through on any of these skills after highschool or at the college level and people forget them.  

            A few years ago, I had to use the CPR skills I learned in the 7th grade on a man who had a pulmonary embolism in front of my house -- he ended up passing on, but the EMTs and the cops both told me that normally people would just sit back and watch someone die in that situation -- either from lack of knowledge, or fear of infectious disease.  In fact, one guy called 911, then left the scene because he was late for work!

            I firmly believe that we are responsible for one another if we want to live in a society (as opposed to off in the woods on our own).

            It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the ones most responsive to change. - Charles Darwin

            by Freedoms Road on Sun May 11, 2008 at 08:42:33 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  The problem with (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          alizard, dolphin777, bushondrugs

          citizen training and participation is that it tends to encourage people to get to know their neighbors and to realize that in many ways, they don't need to go through "authority" figures to get things done.  Independent people are harder to control.

          As for the mandatory job corps thing mentioned above, why not have these things taught in high school?

          They see me trollin'. They hatin'

          by obnoxiotheclown on Sun May 11, 2008 at 08:30:33 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  More training (3+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Eloise, dolphin777, bushondrugs

            If community members could be offered training in medical assistance, this training could help establish better personal exchange. The American Red Cross makes such training available, and those who take it would, by the nature of such teaching and learning, become more concerned community members.
            Who/what organization can get this done?
            I'll see...

          •  problem? (3+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            hazey, Eloise, dolphin777

            sounds like a solution to me.

            Pandemic Flu: Volunteers practice for a real emergency
            http://www.acorn-online.com/...

            Get Pandemic Ready
            http://www.getpandemicready.org/

            ReadyMoms Go National-Again! Emergency Management Summit
            http://www.newfluwiki2.com/...

            "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

            by DemFromCT on Sun May 11, 2008 at 08:44:29 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Well, I think (3+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            alizard, Eloise, dolphin777

            the plan needs to involve more than students.

            And ideally, the training should cover more than just 1 type of emergency [for example, in the areas subject to floods, it might address flooding and medical; in areas subject to fires, training might include fires and medical].

            I'm thinking about training in concrete steps; for example, if the bird flu hit my area, what could/should I do?  Even with public announcements going on, some more action may be needed.  Should I walk house to house, talk to people about symptoms, possibly determine if someone is ill, if someone is ill, figure out how to quarantine or take to the hospital or call a group of people already set up to provide transportation, tell other household members how to sterilize house once sick person is removed or if remaining family members need to leave house, how to keep from catching the disease as I contact people, etc, etc. [assuming I'm not one of the sick people].

            Same thing for a fire--what could I do?

            There's really no point in not training and using the human resources that are available and capable.  Especially since it's in our best interest to know this stuff.  

            Bush's presidency is now inextricably yoked to the policies of aggression and subjugation. Mike Whitney

            by dfarrah on Sun May 11, 2008 at 08:54:37 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  local hospital tried crosstraining people (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      tmo, Eloise, dolphin777

      so that clerical workers become health workers. When they tried to run a mock emergency, the workers' attempts to adjust to new roles were the real disasters.

    •  We should also try to avoid such tragedies (4+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      alizard, Eloise, dolphin777, bushondrugs

      Increased international cooperation to recognize and curb disease. Decrease in any agricultural practice that can breed or spread disease is also imperative as are clean living conditions for every human being.

      The rich think that they can cordon themselves off with fences. This is only partly true. If we allow a large underclass to develop with poor enough living conditions, it will bite us all in the buttocks.

      Oh, and climate change isn't helping anything.

      Have a great day!!!

      An eye for an eye and the whole world will be blind.

      by rini6 on Sun May 11, 2008 at 09:00:55 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Triage has always been part of the (8+ / 0-)

    healthcare equation... it is a painful choice...but one that saves many lives...

    •  triage is best done (4+ / 0-)

      by working it through, in advance, with the public.

      "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

      by DemFromCT on Sun May 11, 2008 at 08:06:50 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  years back local walmart was dusted (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Eloise, dolphin777, bushondrugs

        by talcum powder right after anthrax scare. The public's contribution was a stampede at the ER where more people were injured trying to force their way into the ER than were potentially injured by the white dust.

      •  How do you do that? (4+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Eloise, DavidCD, bushondrugs, JG in MD

        Telling them the facts is one thing...but I am not sure that the general public understands how this works in real cisis mode...

        •  you need local people telling them (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Eloise, dolphin777, bushondrugs

          and getting them involved in local drills, like CERT for earthquakes in CA.

          it can be done.

          "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

          by DemFromCT on Sun May 11, 2008 at 09:07:27 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Community-level drills help a lot. (4+ / 0-)

            Even if the drills have problems, they still help get the public into thinking about how to collectively be part of the solution during a crisis.

            One of the biggest obstacles is our society's dichotomy between the "Me First" attitude and "Government trumps individual rights" attitude.  Neither of these positions recognizes the importance of give-and-take within a community.

            For a pandemic, it will help if communities have prepared in advance by encouraging people to stockpile extra food and supplies.  FEMA advises that all households should do this anyway, in preparation for any emergency that could knock out electricity or water for 3-5 days.

            Churches, clubs, and other groups that gather should figure out alternatives for serving their needs without physically gathering in one place.  For example, in a crisis, could worship be modified to be done via phone chain?

            Even grocery shopping could function during a pandemic, if a community figures how to have smaller numbers of people enter each store at a time, people stay 12 feet apart from one another, touch-it-you-buy-it, no symptomatic people can enter, and everyone wears gloves and face mask.  Yes, that would take a higher level of community trust, but it could be done.

            Think: "How can this work for me and my neighbors"?

            Impeachment is a duty, not an option that can be taken off the table.

            by bushondrugs on Sun May 11, 2008 at 09:29:58 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  Triage is part of all disaster planning (4+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      SaraBeth, Eloise, dolphin777, bushondrugs

      Major hospitals used to have a day for triage practice.  Do they still do that?

      •  It's not just triage - it's *combat* triage (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        nanobubble

        Ordinary triage is sorting the living from the dead, then sorting the living into who needs the most attention so they can get it, the goal being that you treat everyone according to need.

        Combat triage is simply about saving as many as you can given circumstances where you know that you probably can't save them all, and that sometimes the people who need the most treatment under ideal circumstances don't get any because doing so puts more people at risk.

        I've been involved in disaster drills and people, even medical professionals, sometimes have an issue getting  their heads around that concept.  An example: I was incident commander at an air crash exercise.  The scenario was a small regional passenger plane with 20 odd passengers trapped inside after a crash.  Aircraft was sitting in a growing pool of jet fuel from the ruptured tanks, no fire yet.

        I ordered my firefighters inside to start hauling people out while another crew started spreading "foam" over the "fuel".  After a few minutes, I wondered what was taking so long and so I wandered over to the school bus subbing for the aircraft to see what was happening.

        All the "victims" had notes indicating what their injuries were (so we didn't have to use makeup or the like).  My crew had done a traditional triage: the people with the relatively-minor injuries (broken arms, cuts and abrasions) or apparently uninjured were still sitting in their seats while the rescuers were doing CPR on someone who had stopped breathing, getting someone with a neck injury strapped into a spineboard, so on and so forth.

        I immediately ordered them to stop and start moving the least injured people first, and stop performing CPR on the one victim so they could move the others who needed assistance to move.

        "But she'll die!"

        "Yes, she will.  Now get the others out."

        It was a combat triage situation.  I had to move as many as I could as quickly as I could (Broken arm? We'll splint it outside, now go) because they were in a hazardous situation: if the fuel ignited, I'd have lost many people.  In the back of my mind, as well, was the reality of the medical situation in the community: we simply didn't have the beds, the room, the equipment, or the personnel to treat everyone, the nearest help was at least two hours away by aircraft, and since this "crash" was on the only runway, there would be no way of landing an aircraft with help anyway until we cleared the wreck, and to do that I needed to clear the victims one way or the other.

        The head of the local health centre, himself a former medic with the British Army, agreed with my decisions.  The nurses and doctors had a bit of a tougher time.

        In a pandemic situation, you're dealing with the same sort of issues.  Do you spend your time on the 75 year old who's suffering from a pulmonary edema when you've got 20 people piling up outside in Emergency every ten minutes who have a decent chance of survival if they get to see a medical professional quickly?  If you have a limited number of vaccines, do they go to people based on apparent need or do you stick to a priority list based on what's needed to keep things running (meaning the people who run the power plants, water, sewage and other infrastructure are ahead of the kids and grandparents)?

        These are the sort of decisions that have to get made, and it's best they're planned when you can look at them objectively and be ready to make the hard decisions.

        •  absolutely (0+ / 0-)

          the only advantage, if there is one, is that the combat triage will take place in slow motion, giving time to check with others about how they are coping, what they are doing, and giving time to 'wrap your head around it'.

          Thank you so much for this comment! It's been an eye opener to watch the (shorthand) DHS and HHS people (my mindset and background is medical/HHS and not disaster/DHS) cope with unified command, interdisciplinary planning, etc. It does not come easy, hence the need to drill (and drill again, after lessons learned).

          "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

          by DemFromCT on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:47:08 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  But triage based on wallet thickness is a problem (7+ / 0-)

      And during a pandemic or crisis, care will definitely go disproportionately to those who are relatively wealthy.  For example, see Katrina.

      Actually... Triage by wallet thickness is already happening, even during times when there is no pandemic or crisis.

      We already have rationing of care.  Even for those of us who are fortunate to have health insurance, the waiting lists for doctors to accept new patients can be as long as 4-6 months.

      Triage also should be restricted to times of crisis, but it now seems to be an unspoken and invisible part of normal operations of our current health-care system.

      Impeachment is a duty, not an option that can be taken off the table.

      by bushondrugs on Sun May 11, 2008 at 08:18:50 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Chertoff has broken the Law (5+ / 0-)

    by not getting together with HHS and stopping the Bush changes to the Medicare funding rules that will cause the closure of many ERs and Hospitals, thereby reducing our security and safety.

    President Theodore Roosevelt,"No man can take part in the torture of a human being without having his own moral nature permanently lowered."

    by SmileySam on Sun May 11, 2008 at 08:09:12 AM PDT

    •  see this excellent diary by tfls (7+ / 0-)

      http://www.dailykos.com/...

      Health Series Success: Bloggers Save Medicaid!

      I first diaried the Bush administration's surreptitious effort to shred our public health system through obscure Medicaid Rules Changes in December of 2007. At the time, I had been frantically calling local and national papers to draw attention to the story. No one wanted to pick it up. So I travelled to Washington DC to collaborate with Marty Sonnenburg, a film-maker I met on the web, and he shot this YouTube video for me:

      We posted it on Daily Kos, ePluribus Media and My DD (we figured we'd alert the Hillary crowd, too), as well as on progressive blogs in key Republican states. Find out how it played out, and how you helped to save the day after the jump!

      "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

      by DemFromCT on Sun May 11, 2008 at 08:12:12 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  part (6+ / 0-)

    of an entire system to support maximum profitability rather than rationally providing maximum care.   Limit medical school spaces, limit facilities provision (RETHUGS may dislike regulation, but just ask about the plethora of regulations created in the last 20 years that seriously play favorites over who controls the  where and how much of hospital and medical facilities), price drugs and services, insurance availability, and scare the population.

    Triage is always going to be part of large scale medical disaster treatment. With appropriate preplanning, ramping up medical training, treatment availability, etc. we can treat more patients.  But saving everybody is never going to be achievable.  Humans are fragile in the face of some kinds of illnesses and injuries.  I don't want to sound uncaring, and I want people's loved ones to survive, but an 89 year old person with a severe heart condition and compromised immune functioning is not going to be easy to save from influenza. How far do you push treatment, when is it going over the line to keep them alive by machine with no real hope of recovery?

    And I don't think we have the technology to stop an influenza pandemic.  Maybe we can better prepare for one but I don't think we can stop viruses or mutations that happen so quickly that our vaccines end up as bad guesses.  All of this is said by someone without a medical degree, so take it for what its worth.

    •  We do have technology.. (0+ / 0-)

      for making anti virus meds and flu shots for a predicted flu in a season.

      There are samples of the bird flu and any thinking person knows they have had time to produce masses of a flu strain that would amelerate the effect of the bird flu. So the hysteria over the possibility of bird flu killing a great % of our population can be brought under control---if they wanted to.

      Also making anti virus meds has had a long time to gear up too.

      So what have they done?----- I really don't know, but they are doing nada to quail the fear factor, which I think is a part of the policy anyway. Keep em afraid and its easier to control em.

      The AMA needs to have a giant foot stuck up its arrogant ass over many many things. Of which curtailing the number of Doctors it allows to be trained is one of the worst policies, right along with protecting Docs that have are inadiquate.

      We are now saddeled with a system of medical care that doesn't have national health care as a priority, and that is unacceptable, period!!!!

      I want every Doctor to make a well healed living, BUT!!!! only because that DOC performs a service to the country. If the service is of todays standards then let them sweat it out like the rest of us.

      •  not accurate summation (6+ / 0-)

        There are samples of the bird flu and any thinking person knows they have had time to produce masses of a flu strain that would amelerate the effect of the bird flu. So the hysteria over the possibility of bird flu killing a great % of our population can be brought under control---if they wanted to.

        These are 'pre-pandemic' samples. On the one hand, there's not enough manufacturing capacity with current egg based technique for more than 350 million doses (population 6 billion) and on the other hand, the virus would have to mutate to go pandemic, so the pre-vaccine may not work at all.

        See:

        The difficult reality is that, even if influenza science were perfect and research funding were abundant, achieving a widely deployable pandemic vaccine is currently out of reach. Chief among the reasons: The world lacks the manufacturing capacity to make enough vaccine to matter.

        Food and Drug Administration (FDA) planners have accepted that, absent rapid changes in current flu-vaccine manufacturing techniques, delivering the earliest doses of a vaccine tuned to a newly emerged pandemic strain would take a minimum of 4 months (see Bibliography: Goodman 2006). A vaccine-industry scenario, described in August in the journal BioPharm International, goes out 6 months: 3 to 4 months to generate a seed strain, 4 to 6 weeks of manufacturing set-up, and 18 weeks of production, including 2 to 3 weeks of quality assurance and regulatory approval—all adding up to a vaccine product that would arrive roughly in time for the pandemic's second wave but long after the first patients had recovered or died (see Bibliography: Thomas 2007).

        But the more difficult obstacle is not the time needed to produce vaccine—which newer technologies such as cell culture could shorten to some degree—but the amount of vaccine needed. Despite years of work, the grave mismatch between predicted demand and likely supply has yet to be solved.

        The World Health Organization's (WHO's) own best-case analysis, published in the agency's 2006 "Global Pandemic Influenza Action Plan to Increase Vaccine Supply," and updated in an Oct. 23, 2007, press release, breaks down the situation this way. In 2006, global manufacturing capacity for seasonal flu vaccine was 350 million doses per year of trivalent vaccine (comprising one 15-microgram [mcg] dose of each of three flu strains' antigens). This year, according to the WHO, capacity could rise as high as 565 million doses, a total that incorporates both actual capacity increases achieved by manufacturers and theoretical capacity that would be created if manufacturing lines ran around the clock for the entire calendar year—something they do not do for seasonal flu-vaccine production. Given that a pandemic vaccine would be aimed at a single strain rather than three, global capacity could thus rise as high as 1.5 billion doses. But a pandemic vaccine would need to be given twice, because, unlike with seasonal flu, there would have been no prior exposure to the novel strain. So absent the use of adjuvants to stretch limited antigen supplies, industry could produce at best enough vaccine for 750 million people, far short of the amount needed to cover the world's 6.7 billion inhabitants (see Bibliography: WHO 2006: Global influenza action plan; WHO 2007: Projected supply of pandemic influenza vaccine; Palkonyay 2007).

        "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

        by DemFromCT on Sun May 11, 2008 at 09:01:42 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]