Daily Kos

Musings Over Morning Coffee

Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 05:29:20 AM PDT

Kos will have a Pennsylvania prediction thread later this morning, but since I come from a state that's already voted, I will spare you the arrogance of demanding the primary be over already (that will come after the votes are counted).

I still find myself firmly in the camp of "Democratic voting? Good!" as thousands of new voters get motivated to register Democratic, turning states ever bluer. I see the lazy media dragging out their "Democratic fratricide" and "unnamed Democratic officials worry about primary" themes and stories. But having been around for a while, I can tell you there's an infinite number of Democratic officials worried about something, and they are always willing to speak to the press about it. They usually live in DC, conveniently for the newspapers, and they don't know squat about what's going on outside the beltway (think George Will lecturing the country about the evils of elitism, or David Broder on the appeal of Mike Bloomberg, Joe Lieberman, and other third party centrists).

One thing seems quite evident prior to getting the vote totals: while Obama has a floor, McCain and Cinton have ceilings, and they've already hit them. This isn't just my idea. Two of the sharper professional analysts have come to live in the same neighborhood. While noting that things can always change in the general election, check out Charlie Cook writing about Obama's chemisty:

This unusual combination created the equivalent in Democratic politics of nitroglycerin. It has already overpowered all but Clinton and is pushing its beneficiary closer and closer to the nomination, despite the inherent advantages that she began with. Obama’s chemistry experiment seems to defy all the normal rules of nomination politics. Could it continue working for him in a general election? That’s a 50-50 proposition, but it certainly would contribute to one of the oddest configurations that the two major parties have offered voters in our lifetimes.

More blunt about Bush's most ardent courtier, Stu Rothenberg says it all in the headline:

For McCain, This Could Be as Good As It's Going to Get

Cook and Rothenberg, seasoned professionals, know enough to look to November for the real story and not waste time on the crap that ABC tried to peddle at their debate (just check polling on national priorities to know what questions to ask, fellas... it's really not that hard). Meanwhile, in the WaPo Dan Balz writes about Beyond Pa., a Weakened Clinton, which is why beyond today there's really no race any more. For that reason, there will be no North Carolina debate.

The North Carolina Democratic Party said Monday that the forum in that state, scheduled for next Sunday night, had been canceled. Mr. Obama had not committed to the date. The cancellation comes as a disappointment for CBS, which had offered the candidates prime air time after the newsmagazine "60 Minutes" for the debate. Katie Couric, the anchor of the "CBS Evening News," would have moderated the debate.

The cancellation was because of political considerations by both candidates, said Paul Friedman, a senior vice president at CBS News.

Hmmm. There was a terrific debate at Yearly Kos moderated by Joan McCarter and Matt Bai, far more substantive than the one on ABC, and the CBS debate has been canceled. Welcome to the future of media (and see you at Netroots Nation).

In the meantime, given that it's primary day in PA, let's simply advise you to ignore the leaked exit polls early in the day, and settle in for a day of politics and democracy (small d). It's been a long time coming, but the end of the Bush era is in sight. And it will be covered, substantively, on the internets.

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Tags: Pennsylvania (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 147 comments

  •  CITIES AND SUBURBS TO REPORT IN FIRST!! (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    stevej, paintitblue, drlevant

    That's what I heard earlier today about when voting ends.

  •  Since we're talking about voting (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    BYw

    why don't we vote better?  Why do we use the ridiculous plurality voting system?

    inertia.

  •  Coffee's for closers only (5+ / 0-)

  •  listening to Tom Joyner right now (4+ / 0-)

    Comedian Huggy Lowdown, talking about being saddled for a blind date, says "no way in hell. No Hillary." I don't usually like Huggy, but I would slide him six ducats.

    I'm ready for the Obama victory after party.

    -7.38, -5.23 "Though the storm may be raging, and the billows tossing high, Lord I feel like going on."

    by CocoaLove on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 05:34:30 AM PDT

  •  Tips for coffee (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    willie horton, paintitblue

    Ummmmmm.....

    Knowledge is a deadly friend, if no one sets the rules, The fate of all mankind, I see, is in the hands of fools....

    by minerva1157 on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 05:34:34 AM PDT

  •  Today I give thanks (13+ / 0-)

    that we won't have to suffer through Katie Couric moderating.

    Get your daily dose of netroots based talking points over at: Strategy '08.

    by smash artist on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 05:34:44 AM PDT

    •  Indeed. (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      elmo

      Could you even imagine how bad that would have been?

    •  I dont know (0+ / 0-)

      Some say Katie Couric is a great moderator. :)

      No way. No how. No McCain -Hillary Clinton

      by jj32 on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 06:28:55 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I agree (0+ / 0-)

      If you thought the ABC debate was embarrassing just imagine a Katy Couric moderated debate.  There is no reason for Obama to subject himself to that again.  If he were to agree to another debate (heaven help us if it's necessary), he should lay the ground rules saying that if he was asked a question that was not about policy, he would simply get up and walk out.  Just make sure that everyone knows that was the ground rules before the debate.

      I was somewhat disappointed that Obama didn't just stop, when asked one of the "gotcha" questions, and say "Is this going to be a gotcha debate or are we going to talk about what America cares about like Iraq, the economy, gas prices, etc".  

    •  Don't You Think... (0+ / 0-)

      ...it would be amusing to watch Katie and the Kandidates trade colonoscopy stories?  Not relevant, but a fitting first to go along with our first black and first woman candidates. And since all of the debates have been pretty much about shit...

  •  "the end of the Bush era is in sight" (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Dallasdoc, confitesprit

    from your keyboard to Gawd's ears.

    I'm not a Democrat, I'm a liberal. Democrats go to meetings.

    by willie horton on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 05:35:29 AM PDT

  •  by the way (13+ / 0-)

    mcjoan is one of those women bloggers that seems to be invisible to those lamenting the absence of women bloggers.

    "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

    by DemFromCT on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 05:35:56 AM PDT

    •  Nice essay (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      jnhobbs

      Our memories are so short.  Remember waaaay back during the Republican primary, all the angst and spilled ink over the horribly divisive contest over there?  How Republicans would never be able to come together?  Now it's all forgotten, and even the most rabid anti-McCainiac has fallen into line.

      Same thing will happen to us.  Once the Republican attack machine swings into full gear, Democrats will remember the stakes.  Even Hillary's partisans will remember who the real opponent is.

      I can't expect to live in a democracy if I'm not prepared to do the work of being a citizen.

      by Dallasdoc on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 05:47:30 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I really enjoyed this front page post (0+ / 0-)

      But can I suggest one thing?

      The word centrist should be in quotation marks when referring to Michael Bloomberg and Joe Lieberman.  Approving of neoconservative foreign policy that sets the Middle East afire, preaches pre-emptive war against Iran, keeps us in Iraq forever, ignores anti-torture laws and Consitutional liberties, bankrupts our treasury, decimates our military readiness, and depletes the national security of the US and it's allies cannot reasonably be called centrist.  Federal lobbyists, military contractors, and other neoconservatives are grateful for the existence of Joe Lieberman in the media to insist that these positions which 70% of Americans disagree with are in fact centrist when they are not.  We must be vigilant not to reinforce such perceptions even in subtle ways, although I'm sure your intention as you were writing this implied quotation marks around the term centrist.

      I didn't think Biden was a good choice for a runningmate... until I saw this.

      by ShadowSD on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 07:57:28 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  what time do polls close, by the way? (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    ebbinflo, nowheredesign
  •  This day is great (0+ / 0-)

    Because it gets rid of the last main excuse the Clinton campaign has been using to hang on.  No matter what the results, we all know Obama will be the nominee.  The superdelegates will begin deciding.

    My guess is that Hillary won't "concede" but will bow out when enough supers go towards Obama.  I don't think she wants to look like she quit.  But after today I am positive she will know it's over.

    All Obama supporters... no, all Democrats should cheering!

    Boris: You're a tyrant, and a dictator, and you start wars!
    Napoleon: Why is he reciting my credits?

    by B man on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 05:36:52 AM PDT

    •  It's going to be a tough rest o' week (0+ / 0-)

      Obama is going to have to deal with a lot of fallout post-Pennsylvania because this is Clinton's last chance. If she can't convince the party/superdelegates now (and she will have somewhat of a decent argument should she win PA by 10-15) she's not going to have a better chance later.

      Obama will win NC and likely OR, but will that be enough?

      "Kid, we don't like your kind, and we're gonna send your fingerprints off to Washington."--Alice's Restaurant

      by ekthesy on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 06:54:43 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  And so begins the era of post-Bush restoration. (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Pariah Dog
  •  Thanks for the perspective (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Dallasdoc, paintitblue

    It was much needed this morning.  I feel at least partially innoculated!

  •  The bottom line is that Hillary is BROKE (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Dallasdoc, Bob Guyer

    I think that the Democratic nomination will be OVER on May 7, the day after the Indiana and North Carolina primaries.

    My prediction is that Obama wins both of those and that will END this primary season.

    Obama: "Because We Won... We Have to Win." 6/6/08

    by Drdemocrat on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 05:38:01 AM PDT

    •  Yep, HRC funding dries up even more after today (0+ / 0-)

      Obama funding continues to flourish and he wins both states, or even ties Indiana, and it is over. Then there will be no more outside money at all and Hillary and Bill won't bet their fortune on propping up her failing campaign.

      Love = Awareness of mutually beneficial exchange across semi-permeable boundaries. Political and economic systems either amplify or inhibit Love.

      by Bob Guyer on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 05:53:14 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  $$$$ For Pardons (0+ / 0-)

      Don't you think that maybe new-FOH Richard Mellon Scaife and all his Bush Buddies will start ponying up in exchange for pardons? Didn't Obama say he would investigate the torture scandal and other defalcations? Don't you think that the vast right-wing conspiracy is going to want to cover their bets by having the election be between two candidates who are open for buisness?

  •  That stinks (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    elmo, BDsTrinity

    No debate in North Carolina?
    I do not know who anyone supports in N.C., but I will suggest this, if your on the fence, go see Obama at a rally. He does get you inspired-and I am 39, if you only knew how hard it is to get me inspired about anything other than sex you would be impressed with that statement

    •  According to pollster.com (0+ / 0-)

      Obama is up by twenty points in NC.

      Why would anyone want to debate there?

      •  Future? (0+ / 0-)

        I have been so happy about my vote yesterday I am not sure what is next-North Carolina or Indiana-I do know however that Indiana is close.
        If Obama can impress Indiana enough in North Carolina and vice versa, maybe the writing on the wall will become more visible?
        At this point Hillary can only win by coup , why not give people what makes them like you-more debating.
        Debates, or whatever the media is calling their slander fests, only make Obama look better, so lets go crazy.

  •  Katie Couric would have been better... (4+ / 0-)

    Than George and Charlie.  In part because she would want to avoid the blowback that they got.

    But she still would've inserted plenty of "gotcha" questions.  So I think Barack is wise to stay on the campaign trail, instead of taking the side trip to Punditland.  Besides, isn't 21 debates enough?

    I still remember Couric's rude questioning of Elizabeth Edwards in her post-cancer-diagnosis interview.  ("How can you be so insensitive, Liz, for not retreating to your mansion, lowering the blinds, and wasting away quietly?  How can you stay active and hopeful?  What about THE CHILDREN!!!")

    Classy.

    -

  •  the only "center" occupied by joe lieberman is (4+ / 0-)

    that of his own self-aggrandizement.

    I am further of the opinion that the President must be impeached and removed from office!

    by UntimelyRippd on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 05:42:40 AM PDT

  •  Good agitprop, but... (0+ / 0-)

    The idea that Hillary has a ceiling while Obama does not should have been exploded once and for all back on March 4 when Texas and Ohio voted.  The myth of Obama as The Transcender of The Laws of Political Gravity will take a further beating today in PA.  Charlie Cook is well-respected, but not a flawless oracle.

    The fact of the matter is that both Clinton and Obama beat McCain currently in national polling.  They both can get to the White House, albeit by different routes.

    The question then becomes which of the two has a better chance.  It remains to be seen, since we have a number of contests still to run.  After Puerto Rico, we will see where things stand.  We will have a better idea then whose ceiling is where.

    I have lost track of how many wakes have been held here on DailyObama for Hillary Clinton, only to have the burial squad stand there with jaws agape as she rises yet again to battle on.  She is a fighter and people still underestimate her.  My theory is people are so committed to Obama, so determined to see him nominated, that they have lost their ability to make balanced judgements.  Hillary therefor never wins, it is some "machine politics" that triumphs, or people are deluded, or afraid or something.  Always an excuse when Obama loses, never credit for the fact that Hillary has mobilized an impressive voting coalition that is matching Obama despite being drastically outspent.

    •  the question is NOT which has a better chance, (0+ / 0-)

      the question is, which will do a better job as President.

      if we want the best chance of [i]our[/i] nominee becoming president, we should choose John McCain. [i]voila![/i] We Win!

      I am further of the opinion that the President must be impeached and removed from office!

      by UntimelyRippd on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 05:46:50 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Hillary is both... (0+ / 0-)

        She would make an excellent President.  I also think Obama would be great.

        But of course you need to win before you cann govern.  It is a fair judgement for the super delegates to ask once all the primaries are done.

        •  i disagree with you. (3+ / 0-)

          the concern over "who has the best chance to win" is destructive of the very core of democracy. to the extent that the question is asked at all, it is not "the" question, it is "a" question, and not one that lies anywhere near the top of the priority list.

          it is quite clear that either candidate can win this thing. if the dems lose the white house, it won't be because the superdelegates decline to anoint a "most likely to succeed," it will be because the dems, as usual, decline to run a winning campaign. (i might observe that this seems more likely in a Clinton campaign, since she's surrounded herself by the same losers who have lost so many other campaigns, but i'm really not that interested in the debate.)

          primary voters and superdelegates should vote for the candidate they prefer to have as president, and then they should set about getting that candidate elected.

          I am further of the opinion that the President must be impeached and removed from office!

          by UntimelyRippd on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 06:01:44 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  The Democratic Party system is not pure democracy (0+ / 0-)

            That is why the super delegates are there.  And you really cannot make a "will of the people" argument on pledged delegates when you have abominations like Texas, where one candidate wins the popular vote then the other saunters off with more delegates.  Caucuses are also dubious indicators of the popular will - they disfavor participation by the elderly, disabled, people with evening jobs, child care responsibilities, etc.  If you tried to run the November elections as caucuses they would likely be found unconstitutional or violations of the Voting Rights Act.

            Making a "pledged delegate uber alles" argument is like calling the Democratic nominating system a cow when in fact it is a horse.  The whole set-up is a mishmash.  But its the mishmash we have to work with.

            I don't begrudge Obama the delegates he has earned, or for playing by the rules.  But it is a real stretch to argue that this flawed system itself reflects small "d" participatory democracy.

            •  we are not going to rewrite the rules (0+ / 0-)

              mid primary.

              "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

              by DemFromCT on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 06:18:27 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Not rewrite rules (0+ / 0-)

                Just follow them.  Like the rule that says super delegates can vote their conscience.

                I have to laugh when Obama supporters wave "the rules" and then argue super delegates should vote the same as pledged delegates - a "rule" they have wholly created from thin air that goes against the letter of what is actually in there.

                •  I am agreeing with you n/t (0+ / 0-)

                  "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

                  by DemFromCT on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 06:30:49 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  you honestly believe 70 percent of the (0+ / 0-)

                  superdelegates are going to pick the second place finisher in a two person race as the nominee? Now, you know superdelegates have never done that before. They have pushed the winner of the primary electoral process over the top, though. I can't swear to it, of course, but it seems likely to me that this is just what they'll do this year.

          •  if the HRCs CamPain is any .... (0+ / 0-)

            indicator, which i believe it is, she would make a shitty president.

            Oh, Jesus: protect me from your followers!

            by trippinsf on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 06:18:30 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  asdf (0+ / 0-)

          She would make an excellent President

          based on?

        •  If her campaign is any evidence (0+ / 0-)

          of her executive abilities, the United States cannot afford a Hillary Clinton presidency.

    •  you know that you've hit a nerve (3+ / 0-)

      when a Clinton supporter starts referring to the FP as 'the DailyObama' because they don't like calling it the way we see it. As I noted, I'm not the only one living in this neighborhood...  see links.

      The fact of the matter is that both Clinton and Obama beat McCain currently in national polling.  They both can get to the White House, albeit by different routes.

      That's absolutely right. However, one of them won't get the chance.

      "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

      by DemFromCT on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 05:51:37 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  This is an Obama hotbed... (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        DemFromCT

        ...and I didn't coin the term DailyObama.  If you look at the recommended diaries here, I would guess well over ninety percent are pro-Obama, anti-Hillary.  And of course many Hillary people left because they get slammed the moment they raise their heads here.  So it was meant to be descriptive.  When you have KOS running front pagers alleged Hillary is a racist who darkens Obama's skin in her ads, you could find stronger language than that.

        For me, I don't mind it.  I think the best way to have growth is to engage with people who may not agree with you.

        As far as the KOS front page "calling it as they see it" they are hardly impartial if you read what is written.  It has been many weeks since I saw Hillary get a fair shake here.  Everything is interpreted and cast in the very worst possible light against her.  If KOS was "calling it as they saw it" the election would have been concluded in February.  The pro-Obama slant here has contributed to a yawning gap in reality where Hillary's  continued victories must seem inexplicable.

        •  hardly (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          ThompsonLazyBoy, paintitblue

          First of all, the FP isn't the recommended diaries (we all get sick of candidate diaries, and when Edwards was the darling of the community here, it was as bad or worse). I don't apologize for, explain or justify diaries (recommended or otherwise).

          Second of all, even on the FP there is a variety of opinion. We have a number of FP contributing editors  (brownsox is a Hillary supporter, and I am not a Hillary slammer; I just don't care for the campaign she has run).

          With that, it must be annoying when your candidate does  not win. Sorry about that. We had some terrific candidates this year, a blessing of riches. it happens to be a change election, and Clinton isn't enough of a change this year, according to the voters. It's that simple.

          "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

          by DemFromCT on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 06:08:28 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Not "bitter" (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            DemFromCT

            Heh, the assumption is that because I am a HRC supporter I am posting here out of some pique that she loses.  Not at all.  I come by almost exclusively to defend her from the demonization that occurs.  Win, lose or draw, she should be treated fairly.  She is not.

            I have very little to say about Obama, because I really have no problem with him.  I just think Hillary is the better choice.  But I will be happy to support Obama if he is the nominee and will encourage other former HRC supporters to do likewise.

            The main thing is getting control of the White House.  All else flows from that.  

            I am a Yellow Dog Democrat.  I backed Gore in 2000 when many of the "progressive left" were slamming him as "Wooden Al" and running off to throw their votes to Nader.  

            That Gore in the space of a few years has gone from the despised former DLC'er to Nobel Prize/Oscar winner and darling of the Netroots should give people pause in their treatment of Hillary.  She is far more progressive on issue after issue than Gore was in 2000.  The 2002 Iraq vote is thrown in her face, but Kerry had the same vote, was our nominee in 2004, and is now an Obama spokesman.  People are giving Hillary short shrift here on DailyKos, the same way the left gave Gore short shrift in 2000.

            •  no argument there (0+ / 0-)

              I would vote for Hillary if she won, though I don't think she will.

              Back at YK in Chicago, August 2007, she was treated very well. But as I noted, it's Hillary's campaign people don't like, and Mark Penn symbolizes and encapsulates it. There's no getting around that when she fell behind, she went negative and provided potential sound bites to McCain in the fall. Add that to her Iraq vote, and there's little tolerance.

              "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

              by DemFromCT on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 06:29:02 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  you've never used the Slate delegate (0+ / 0-)

      counter to project out the rest of the race, obviously.

      Your comment also seems to imply that being able to raise amazingly large amounts of money from a seemingly endless supply of small donors is a drawback. Care to explain that thinking?

  •  Final Zogby tracking poll (0+ / 0-)

    FWIW:

    Hillary 51% (yesterday 48%)

    Obama 41% (yesterday 42%)

    Let the great world spin for ever down the ringing grooves of change. - Tennyson

    by bumblebums on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 05:44:46 AM PDT

  •  ABC Debate, Part II.... (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    jj32, drlevant

    ...You know how the very accurate saying goes, "McCain will give us George Bush's 3rd term?"

    Well, CBS was poised to give us the ABC debate, Part II...

    Katie Couric, the anchor of the "CBS Evening News," would have moderated the debate.

    Thank God they had enough sense to bail out of this enusing gotcha/stupid fest.

    "The thought of [McCain] being president sends a cold chill down my spine."-Senator Thad Cochran, Mississippi Republican.

    by wyvern on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 05:45:09 AM PDT

  •  Unconventional Thoughts on the Democratic Primary (0+ / 0-)

    'A lot of analysis on the Democratic campaign has depended on a few key points that have become the conventional wisdom. While many of them are on the mark, some strike me as incorrect.'

    The Clintonista Post

  •  Steve is not happy (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Buffalo Girl

  •  Questions On Primary Voter Registration Benefit (0+ / 0-)

    The theory is that the benefits of this outweigh the costs of a long primary season. Those costs being the increased negative approval for the candidates involved and the scars that will not heal over with a certain percentage of the electorate. Couldn't expanded voter registration take place during a hotly contested general election season as well? Could we also question the quality of some of these new registrations. Will they be voters who might not be as reliable to turn out on election day as new registrants who come into play through the normal process?

  •  OMG THANK THE GODS TODAY IS THE DAY! (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    drlevant

    OK, PA, get out the vote and bring it home!

    As Dem says...there is no race after today. This is it.

    Thank the gods.

    ~Doc~

    -7.88 -8,77 Just a wine sipping, brie eating, $6 coffee drinking, Prius driving, over educated, liberal, white, activist, male New Englander for Barack Obama.

    by EquationDoc on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 05:48:44 AM PDT

  •  Can Obama Reaasure White Voters? (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    elmo, drlevant

    This upside-down, convoluted  meme is a prominent one espoused by TV pundits and  corporate journalists.

    It kinda goes like this:  Obama's blackness (Afro-Americaness?) brings up White folks "legitimate" fear that an African American president  will use the office to put the aspirations of Black peolple ahead of White people.

    Obama is required to show how "non-threatening" he is to these "salt of the earth" White folks and their bedrock values.

    Basically this line of reasoning shows a fundamental racism in the views and attitudes of corporate media, and panders to the White people as being legitimate racists.

    Well I've been from Tucson to Tucumcari... Tehachapi to Tonopah--Lowell George/Little Feat

    by frandor55 on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 05:52:13 AM PDT

  •  The end of the Bush era is in sight (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    CW Wisconsin

    Every time I get a little down, all I have to do is remember that sentence.

    Meddle not in the affairs of dragons... for thou art crunchy and good with ketchup.

    by Pariah Dog on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 05:53:16 AM PDT

  •  Free trading advice (0+ / 0-)

    Short McCain on Intrade. Better yet, find a place where they trade options on political futures and sell cheap McCain calls to take in premium, then take your wheelbarrow to the bank. The same concept would work substituting the US Dollar for John McCain. Carry on.

    Let's go back to E Pluribus Unum

    by hazzcon on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 05:59:58 AM PDT

  •  Obama Clinton (0+ / 0-)

    I'm sure that the cons of such a ticket are substantial but it may be that we are in a situation where the perfect is getting in the way of the good.  I thinkkkkkk I am getting closer to accepting the inevitable.

    go raibh maith agat

    by jersy on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 06:00:10 AM PDT

    •  That would be a dynamite ticket (0+ / 0-)

      Obama-Clinton is fine with me, although my first preference would be to flip the two.

      Let us assume things play out that Obama is nominee.  He is nothing if not intelligent.  Two factors will present themselves.  First, what is the lay of the land vs. McCain.  Second, can Hillary help more than she hurts by being on the ticket.  I think it entirely possible he will conclude: a) the Democrats will need all hands on deck to win; b) Hillary (and more specifically the Clinton Machine) will help more than hurt.

      Many others have commented that LBJ and JFK had a much tenser relationship and ended up a team.

      One other objection has been that, since they are both senators from states likely to go Democratic whoever the nominee is, putting the other on the ticket gains nothing.  But that won't be the controlling criteria.  It is not about states, it is about voting blocs in the key battlegrounds.  You match Obama's coalition with Hillary's coalition and it is a dynamic and synergetic fit.

      In 2004, we saw the limits of the strategy of picking someone from a region you want to win as VP.  Kerry picked Edwards, and it helped not even t win Edward's home state of NC.

      Obama-Clinton could challenge in the south in another way.  Obama cements the high tech white voters and AA vote, while they send Bubba (a new south Democratic) out into the small towns like he has been doing for Hillary.  There are many ways this could work.  Egos won't stand in the way if it makes political sense.

      The key here is what happens today.  If Hillary wins big in PA, the political realities will be that she cannot be ignored.

      •  That Would Also Be A Bulls**t Ticket (0+ / 0-)

        We don't need the narcissistic ravings of the Clintons in government anymore, even in the capacity of vice-president, especially in light of how frequently Clinton opponents turn up dead in mysterious circumstances. We want to say "NO" to the lobbyists, "NO" to the investment bankers (yes, even little goggle-eyed Chelsea), and "NO" to the neo-con enablers who allowed 9/11 to happen and got us into Iraq.

        •  eh (0+ / 0-)

          the real bullshit is the part in your post about people turning up dead and the "allowing 9/11 to happen." Come on! There's enough legitimate stuff to criticize the Clintons on without venturing into tinfoil territory.

    •  only if you want to depress (0+ / 0-)

      Democratic turnout and increase Republican turnout.

      An Obama/Clinton ticket would likely get fewer votes than an Obama/AnybodyButClinton ticket.  I'd have a really hard time voting for that ticket, and I'm a big Obama supporter!

  •  Obama by 1%. Won't be online for prediction poll. (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    paintitblue

    Basing that on PPP and SurveyUSA which have been most accurate.

    PPP has Obama by 3% and has been that way for a week with very large sample sizes, 2,000.

    SUSA has had Clinton by 18% to 14% to 6% on the latest.

    Based on SUSA's trend line for Clinton (that's a huge fast drop as the election nears) and PPP's steady Obama by 3% the trend is heavily in Obama's favorite for undecideds to take a chance on Obama, to want to end the nomination process, Clinton's increasing high negatives, that Clinton has no chance to win nomination.

    •  well I hope you're right (0+ / 0-)

      I pray you are right, but I don't think so, don't dare believe it...

      •  A gamble. Safe bet is Clinton by 7% per poll avg. (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        ekthesy

        But PPP and SUSA were both right on OH.

        Assuming both are right about PA also, PPP has been solid 3% for Obama and SUSA is showing a nose dive for Clinton. They had her furhtest ahead at 18% just a few weeks ago and now have her really tanking in a sharp downward trend.

        •  Listen to spin (0+ / 0-)

          Premise 1: Rendell said this morning that he expected Clinton by 6-9 points.

          Premise 2: Those in the know will intentionally lowball support so as to make the "true" outcome look surprising by comparison

          Conclusion: Safe bet is Clinton by 10-14.

          A victory for Obama would be 6-9 points. Six points would be huge given that he usually underperforms late polls and that Pennsylvania voters have been resistant to Obama...PA = (OH + KY) x 2.

          Obama can still deal with a 10-14 point loss if the delegate math comes out right. Clinton can pick up delegates in Obama territory, and with media complicity, make this a very bad time for Obama.

          "Kid, we don't like your kind, and we're gonna send your fingerprints off to Washington."--Alice's Restaurant

          by ekthesy on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 07:02:42 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Can anyone on this sight blame either Candidate.. (0+ / 0-)

    For not wanting another debate.  By now, we all can recite the issues like we can do our ABC's. This is just another shot the MSM would have of making sure there is yet another Republican in the WH this fall.  Did anyone hear of Bush's low poll numbers this morning?  I had to leave for work and did not hear them.  I hear they are the lowest...EVER...!!

    •  don't see it anywhere yet (0+ / 0-)

      In March, as the President’s Approval Rating slipped, the number of Americans who consider themselves to be Democrats remained near the highest levels ever recorded by Rasmussen Reports.

      with Rasmussen at 34 (that's low end for Rasmussen). Newsweek has him at 28%, ABC/WaPo at 33%. Those are the most recent polls I know of.

      "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

      by DemFromCT on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 06:14:25 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Yeah, I think Obama joked that the (0+ / 0-)

      next debate should be him saying Hillary's talking points, and Hillary saying his talking points. They both know them so well after 20 debates, they could do it.

      No way. No how. No McCain -Hillary Clinton

      by jj32 on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 06:32:45 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I had to turn off the radio this morning (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    trippinsf

    Bill Press was incredulous about the fact that Hillary would have to win big....he called it media spin, and no matter how many people called in to explain the MATH, he would interrupt them and say they had bought into the spin....he claimed a win was a win and it wouldnt matter if she won by 1 point, she still would be considered a winner by the superdelegates, espcially since obama has spent so much money,...I cant listen when someone is deliberately obtuse...

    Politics is like driving...if you want to go backwards, choose R. If you want to move forward, choose D.

    by fireflynw on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 06:06:25 AM PDT

    •  i gagged too ... (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      fireflynw

      Bill P, whom i can tolerate despite his HRC cheerleading, had that little dink jim 'pool boy' van de hei from politico on.

      pool boy ran out the old 'sure blacks and elite whites will vote for BHO in the fall but will hispanics and regular dems??'

      LIKE HIPANICS and blue coller dems ARE naturally GONNA VOTE FOR MCNASTY CAUSE mcmonster did not win the primary!!!

      i really dislike that smarmy little asshat!

      Oh, Jesus: protect me from your followers!

      by trippinsf on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 06:26:11 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Dick Nixon rolling in his grave! (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    DemFromCT, jj32

    Julie Nixon Eisenhower, a PA resident, is supporting Obama.

  •  Clinton doesn't win anyone over. (0+ / 0-)

    She doesn't convert anyone to her side. She doesn't bring anyone to the polls who wasn't going to vote.

    All she can do is try to hang onto the support she started with. But she grows less popular and more loathsome every time she opens her mouth.

    "The insinuation from the Obama campaign that John McCain, a former prisoner of war, cheated is outrageous."

    by expatjourno on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 06:20:10 AM PDT

  •  Those 7 weeks have been Torture (0+ / 0-)

    I am glad it's almost over...
    you know whith I trust the most with predictions?
    Al Gioradano's

    He has been spot on this primary season....you would like what e has to say :D

    This year we can declare our independence...Barack Obama

    by PalGirl2008 on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 06:20:35 AM PDT

  •  HRC saying she has experience is BS (0+ / 0-)

    She says she has the experience to be Prez, because Hill Billy was, well thats like my wife saying she has experience in being a machinist because I'm one.

    I never lie to any man because I don't fear anyone. The only time you lie is when you are afraid -John Gotti

    by Code Breaker on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 06:38:04 AM PDT

  •  agree (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    DemFromCT, toys

    Primaries are painful for the short term--beneficial long term.  All the shit gets cleared and the candidates both stronger--and negatives become old news.  The base gets energized, the losing teams fall in place, money comes pouring in.  The preview of this was Edwards.  His support in the left was very strong--his message very enticing.  When he was defeated, his supporters went over to Obama, and his message vaguely was accepted by Obama.

    Hillary, for all the bricks thrown at her, has shown that women can be strong enough to run for any office.  It might not be her time, but her impact will be positive and lasting.  I still want an open convention--I want great reality TV--I want the press to stay fascinated by all this.  I want a 45 stae victory in November.  I want the present DC leaders in jail.  I might get what I want--let the games continue.

  •  lebanon daily news-obama goes to church (0+ / 0-)

  •  It will come as a shock to folks in... (0+ / 0-)

    West Virginia, Kentucky, Indiana, and North Carolina that after today there is no race...

    Oh btw...a candidate has to have 2024 pledged delegates  to be the nominee...merely being slightly ahead is not the mark of victory...

    Neither candidate will reach that level..

    If Obama supporters had been alive in 1860 they would have been beating the drums for Old Abe Lincoln to drop out of the race...after all Uncle Abe was 71.5 delegates behind William Seward, and should have dropped out for the good of the party...

    Right?

    •  we'll see.... (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      ThompsonLazyBoy

      the superdelegates aren't going to wait around. When Hillary wins by only 5 or 6 today, the writing will be on the wall.

      "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

      by DemFromCT on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 06:55:10 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  And if she wins by 10 or more...? (0+ / 0-)

        Which even Zogby says is a possibility today?

        One thing Kos and his ilk has accomplished. He has made great strides in turning the progressive movement into a mirror image of the right wing...different ideology, same despicable tactics...

        •  silly comment (0+ / 0-)

          if she wins by 10, come talk to me. She'll get props just like I gave her after texas, and you can look it up.

          "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

          by DemFromCT on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 08:30:58 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I can also look up... (0+ / 0-)

            The innumerable times a purge of this or that Democrat from the party has been proposed here...

            Apparently now including the Presidential candidate (Clinton)  supported by half the rank and file...

            Oh btw: Suffolk U has Hillary with a 12 point lead in PA, and ARG by 16...if that factors into your calculations...

            •  ARG never factors in (0+ / 0-)

              the CW is 6-8 points; the poll of polls at pollster.com and real clear politics agree with that. Chris Matthews gives 8.

              It'll take double digits to change the dynamic.

              "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

              by DemFromCT on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 10:26:37 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  excellent roundup (0+ / 0-)

              of the polls here:

              http://www.pollster.com/...

              "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

              by DemFromCT on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 11:28:11 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  10 point win (0+ / 0-)

              or just under.

              Enough to continue for two more weeks. Good job by Clinton, though not good enough.

              it's over after NC and IN.

              "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

              by DemFromCT on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 04:08:46 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  you've never gone to the Slate delegate (0+ / 0-)

      counter and projected out the rest of the race, have you?

      That's quite obvious.

  •  Let the healing begin (0+ / 0-)

    It was reported just the other day that the right wing of the Republican party is now back on board with McCain.

    It is good that the continuing primary battle is bringing more people into the Democratic party, but it is time to pick our candidate and start building the coalition that will win in November.

    We do not need Democrats praising McCain over other Democrats. We need to start making McCain tell the American people just where he does stand on inflation, housing and the sinking wages of the American public.

    Four out five sock puppets agree

    by se portland on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 06:47:50 AM PDT

  •  some problems in york,pa polls (0+ / 0-)

    <